Listen to this episode at https://perfectlygenericpodcast.com/updates/episodes/23
Kate: The Perfectly Generic Podcast contains spoilers, occasional adult language, and Vriska. You've been warned.
Kate: Tighten your wigs, Homestuck fans! It's the Perfectly Generic Podcast episode 23. I'm Kate Mitchell and I'm here with Nell: Nell, how's it going?
Nell: It's alright! God — okay — hi! How are you today?
Kate: I'm doin' great. I did — I did some stuff last night that was really fun.
Nell: Yeah you did, man!
Kate: Let's talk about this after your introduction though. Tell me a little bit about yourself.
Nell: I'm Nell, I go by @nellcromancer on Twitter. I've just — I don't know why you have me on here. I put some tweets out and apparently they got extremely popular, and now I'm here.
Kate: Yeah, you had good takes about Kanaya so I followed you and then you —
Kate: I wanted some good takes about Kanaya on the show. This show has mostly been — it's mostly been — it's mostly: we just talk about Eridan and good takes about Kanaya. So what's your Homestuck story? Whenever I have a new guest on the show I like to ask, like, when did you first engage with Homestuck and like how did you find it?
Nell: Alright, man, okay, so I was the, like — I didn't — I wasn't the person who discovered Homestuck, I was in a friend group that was into whatever was trending on Tumblr at the time. Back — god, in 2013, 2014. And they suddenly one day started talking about Homestuck, and I was like, I don't wanna be left out, so I binged all of the first fuckin 5 Acts of Homestuck in like, a week and got caught up. And I never really stopped — there was like, maybe a year or two where I —
Kate: And when was this?
Nell: Oh yeah, no, I got into Homestuck when it was like — in 2013, like, beginning of —
Kate: Like peak fandom era.
Nell: Peak fandom, like right before the dancestor arc dropped. So right before Openbound. So I was like, my first introduction to like — like my first introduction to the fandom was *that* discourse. Which was really fun and exciting.
Kate: [laughs] And have you been involved ever since?
Nell: No! I dropped out for a little while — back in 2014 some stuff happened at school, and like, updates slowed, and I got really busy with coursework and also depressed. And —
Kate: It really do be like that sometimes.
Nell: It really do be like that sometimes. And I convinced myself for a while that I hated Homestuck, and somebody mentioned Homestuck like, four — like a year ago now, and I was like, well shit. I have to read that again! And I did! And now I'm here! And I haven't looked back.
Nell: It was literally like, I *have* to reread this again. I read — I reread all of Act 1, 2 and 3 in like a single day and I immediately fished my Kanaya hoodie out of my dresser, and I was like, I'm wearing this again.
Nell: This is now a thing I wear!
Nell: This is [laughs]
Kate: I actually do not have very much Homestuck merch. I have a Time hoodie and a Karkat shirt.
Nell: What do you have?
Kate: I have a Time hoodie, a Time pin which I wear on my suit jacket when I'm doing like, TV hits and stuff because the world needs to know that I'm Homestuck on main. [laughs]
Nell: You're the best of us! I'm scared to be Homestuck on my main because like — I don't know, I already — like, my job prospects are already kinda weird, like —
Kate: Here's the thing, is you either — like, I feel like you know what — if you know what Homestuck is you'd be telling on yourself to chastise me for being Homestuck on main. So people don't do it.
Nell: No! No, I'm extremely jealous of the fact that you're — you *can* be Homestuck on main. I'm like —
Kate: Genuine fact: I started this podcast like, back in August, as a sort of a process of getting over my internalized Homestuck phobia.
Nell: Yeah. Listening to it has helped me with that actually.
Kate: Yeah, 'cause it's like — but it genuinely, because I have moved into a really public role in my day job since like, this started, and since I got involved in the Homestuck community again last year — and part of like, surviving that for me has been realizing that like, life is too short for me to be ashamed of shit. Especially good shit.
Nell: Cringe culture is out!
Nell: Being radically into the shit that you're into culture is what is hot 'n happening right now and I'm all for it.
Kate: Exactly, so I smack that Time symbol, y'know, on my like — my professional brand is the god damn Time symbol! [laughs]
Nell: Yeah, no! That's awesome.
Kate: Yeah. And, y'know, it's been something that's sort of been like a centering presence for me. I mean, all the folks that have come on this show that I've met are just incredible. And now — y'know, and then — and it's been one of the greatest things, and it — I definitely had the like — one of the weirdest nights of my Homestuck life last night.
Nell: You got to meet — I don't wanna steal this from you, but you —
Kate: No go ahead, you say it.
Nell: You got to meet somebody, and I'm extremely jealous about this. You got to meet Andrew Hussie and I need you to tell me about everything that you can and are allowed to.
Kate: Okay, so we mostly — we talked about Juggalos, like a *lot*. Like a *lot* a lot. Like — to — to a potentially concerning degree we talked about Juggalos.
Nell: Yeah, I like — I wanna know, 'cause you were there, James was there too —
Nell: Did James look worried with how much you talked about Juggalos?
Kate: Yeah, yeah — absolutely, absolutely. Like, a huge part of our conversations were just speaking — were just like, devolving into madness talking to each other while James just like, looked at both of us like, Oh God, I've facilitated this meeting.
Nell: An alkali metal meets water.
Kate: We also were just — y'know, we just enthusiastically walked down the street, like, agreeing with each other that Vriska had never done anything wrong in her life, not once, not ever.
Nell: Which, by the way, she hasn't. She's never!
Nell: Nothing that Vriska has ever done was ever her fault and nothing she could control.
Kate: Yeah, exactly! Exactly.
Nell: She is blameless in everything.
Kate: She's a victim.
Nell: She is a victim.
Kate: And — so we would just sort of loudly, like, say that and then like, just — and then I would just turn to James like, making a face [laughs]
Nell: James "Aradia's the only character in Homestuck" Roach, of course.
Kate: Yes, of course. And I mean, to be fair, she's a fan— Aradia is a fantastic character.
Nell: Oh no, I love Aradia! But this isn't an episode about Aradia.
Kate: No it's not! 'Cause we haven't done an episode about Aradia yet. James, come on and do the Aradia episode!
Nell: Oh [laughs] I would love to listen to James talk about Aradia.
Kate: Yeah. We also — we talked about Eridan because no matter what I do in my life, every conversation I have ends up coming back to Eridan! Including, now, this one, because I'm telling this story!
Nell: No, it's okay! I was gonna bring up Eridan probably as well, I have a pretty —
Kate: Yeah, well you have to bring up Eridan with Kanaya 'cause their arcs are really intertwined.
Nell: Yeah, they're — well, one's arc ends the other's arc.
Kate: Yeah! And thank God for that.
Nell: [sighs] Oh man.
Kate: I like to say shit that just pisses people off. Like a couple weeks ago I called Eridan a minor character [laughs]
Nell: [laughs] Like, he *is* though!
Kate: He is!! He is a minor character!
Nell: Like, if you look at the body of the work of Homestuck, Eridan shows up for maybe less than 2 percent of it. He is — he's such a tiny role. And the amount of discourse he has created is on par with Vriska.
Nell: Like, the difference is that Vriska got brought back so she got to keep doing discourse, whereas Eridan ended and that *was* the discourse. I've pissed off some Eridan fans before and probably will in this episode too. But that's okay, because —
Kate: Uh-huh. The final — so the final character word-count for —
Kate: For Eridan is — where's Eridan — he's got four — he has less words than Jasprose! Like, Eridan — Eridan is a minor character, guys!
Nell: [laughs] Oh man, now that we've made all of the Eridan stans mad, can we tell — tell us more about your amazing date with Hussie. It's not a date.
Kate: No it super was not!! Nope!! [laughs]
Nell: Oh no. [laughs]
Kate: [struggles for a while] Y'know, we had some beers, we chatted about stuff — we talked about Kanaya a little bit 'cause I knew I was gonna be recording this the next day. And — y'know, so if any of my takes sound like, particularly smart, it's because I'm just repeating what Andrew said to me yesterday [laughs] But actually, here's the thing. So the thing that I need all of you to understand is that mostly our conversations were just me confirming that I am right about everything about Homestuck and I have always been right, and I will always be right.
[Discord disconnect sound]
Kate: You've — my ego got too big for you there?
[Discord reconnect sound]
Kate: You're back!
Nell: Yeah! Sorry, the internet decided it didn't want me to speak.
Kate: It's traditional. The Perfectly Generic Podcast is absolutely cursed. I have this — I have this remarkable ability to like, ruin my guests' internet just by having them on the show. It's like a superpower of mine.
Nell: It's the — the forces — it's Lord English himself trying to prevent discourse about Homestuck from happening.
Kate: Yeah, exactly. Like Lord English's objective as a villain is to try to get you not to care about Homestuck.
Nell: Exactly, and — Perfectly Generic Podcast stands as a bulwark against not caring about Homestuck —
Nell: Because everybody on this podcast cares so much about Homestuck.
Kate: It's true. We haven't — we've yet to have a guest who doesn't care about Homestuck. Maybe one day we will. [laughs]
Kate: Let's see here, so let's — let's move on from my auspicious meeting.
Nell: Yeah, wow.
Kate: [laughs] He's a funny dude. He's a really great dude. We talked — so here's the thing, in case anyone's wondering, like — we talked about the bad shit too, like — y'know, we talked about the stuff from earlier this year that I talked about on the show. Like — y'know, like it's good. He's a very honest dude and it was good to be able to be honest with him about that stuff.
Nell: That's actually extremely reassuring as a fan, to hear that he's like, repentant. And like, aware of like, exactly what he did and why he messed up and that he was cool with having, like, a fan hold him accountable for that.
Kate: Yeah, I mean I, y'know, I — look. If, y'know — it's been like, 10 years of like, this crazy community. And I don't think it's — here's the thing, is it's not bad to critically engage with media. It's just not. And like, some — y'know, there's people who get into sort of a stan-ish mindset about things that they like or people that they like, where you start glossing over the ability of that thing or those people to do harm. And you stop — you stop being in favor of the thing being good and good for people and you start just sort of defending the thing.
Nell: It's like a deification of media.
Kate: Yeah exactly. And nobody — y'know, the people who make media are just people.
Nell: Right, yeah.
Kate: They're complicated people, like they're people who make mistakes sometimes. And, y'know, I don't believe — I firmly don't believed in cancel culture and I especially don't believe in it when somebody makes a mistake they learn from and then they move on.
Kate: And they — like, and not just move on by ignoring it — they move on by taking actual measures to ensure that shit like that doesn't happen again.
Nell: Right! Yeah, exactly.
Kate: And my experiences meeting members of the Homestuck team and folks who are part of this community now, like — I have — I have faith in what's happening moving forward, not because I'm ignoring shit that's been bad or shit that's been difficult but because I know that nobody's ignoring it.
Nell: Right, because people are acknowledging it and holding people in charge accountable.
Kate: Yeah exactly.
Nell: Which is really welcome. I think it's the best possible solu— outcome for something as terrible as what happened.
Kate: Yeah, so I wanted to — I wanted to get into that just a little bit —
Kate: Just so that folks know that like, I'm not — y'know, I'm not like, oh it's cool, we — y'know, like I hung out with this guy so now I'm not, like — and now nothing —
Nell: We're all buds now, nothing happened. No it still happened!
Kate: The only — the only person who's never done anything wrong is Vriska.
Nell: Right, exactly, and I'm glad that everybody can agree on that.
Nell: There's no — there's no recent survey that says that you and I are in the minority here (!)
Kate: Well here's the thing, is it actually doesn't matter because we are canonically heroes for believing Vriska did nothing wrong.
Nell: [laughs] We are, and that brings us to the other — I think the other piece of Homestuck news was that a couple of comic book stores broke the release date for Book 4 —
Nell: So we got a lot of really tasty author notes.
Kate: We did!
Nell: A lot of them focusing on Vriska, but —
Kate: Of course.
Nell: Yeah, oh man. Those quotes killed me.
Kate: She's the most important fictional character of all time! And I want to get into — I'll get into some of those quotes, I think next week, about Vriska.
Nell: Oh yeah!
Kate: I might do another Vriska episode next week, please forgive me audience.
Nell: Vriska deserves at least eight episodes.
Kate: Yeah exactly, there will be eight Vriska episodes before I wrap up this fucking podcast. Just — you guys need to understand that, at the very least there will be eight.
Kate: So we're like —
Nell: But we're not talking about Vriska today! We're talking about —
Kate: No, we're not, we're like — we're like ten minutes into the show, we haven't even talked about Kanaya at all. So this episode is — like. moving on from Andrew Hussie, this episode is about Andrew Hussie's self-insert: Kanaya.
Nell: Yes! My — [sighs] the lesbian vampire fashion queen.
Kate: Yes. Kanaya is one of my favorite characters because I'm a lesbian. I'm not a vampire or a fashion queen, but y'know. I — we all have our flaws! [laughs]
Nell: [laughs] I am also neither a vampire or a fashion queen, but I too am a lesbian and also in love with Kanaya.
Kate: Yeah. Kanaya is one of the characters in Homestuck that I think has the most like, satisfying arcs. There's a lot of characters in Homestuck that have deliberately unsatisfying arcs because Homestuck is sometimes deliberately unsatisfying. But =
Nell: Right, it's part of its whole metatheological thesis.
Kate: Yeah exactly, and actually — so speaking about that I actually wanted to get into this a little bit. I did wanna read a little bit of the book excerpt. I wanted to read one first, which was:
Andrew Hussie: "'Why did the author hate this character so much?' is a question some ask of fiction that is harsh to its occupants. It isn't true hate, but something else. A necessary degree of authorial viciousness to produce the right kinds of tension, which is tempered and balanced by an opposite force: authorial affection for a creation, which can express itself in extremes too like various kinds of indulgence. These forces are explored symbolically in a more coherent sense later, but I think the themes begin to develop as Vriska's portrait comes into better focus as a vessel for this particular kind of scorn. One obsessed with challenging others in cruel ways to force them to overcome their limitations and get stronger. This quality probably becomes noticeable in this sequence because it stands in contrast to what Kanaya is doing. If Vriska is the current mouthpiece for authorial scorn, Kanaya counters with authorial affection. While Vriska wants to throw weaklings into the water to sink or swim, Kanaya prefers to support them with maternal concern. Acting as this sort of authorial mouthpiece is not a huge part of Kanaya's character but it comes through in the right context."
Nell: God, I love all of these notes, they're so good. And it is — it's really interesting 'cause like, thinking about it from that perspective it's like, Kanaya got with her girlfriend, she married her girlfriend! That's the end of the story, like that's what happens!
Nell: Like, that's affection in a story that is, like, rife with characters being given pretty rough ends of the stick —
Nell: Especially at the end of the story. To have Kanaya win — Kanaya is the one who won the most, I think.
Kate: Yeah. Yeah.
Nell: It is I think really touching and important. But I also just think Kanaya is intrinsically important in that she is a lesbian and like, associated with motherhood, and with — in a way that is sort of disparate from the other characters in Homestuck. She is effeminate in a way that not a lot of the other surviving trolls were.
Kate: Yeah, I mean she is — I would say she's like, she's the high femme of Homestuck.
Nell: Yeah, she's — yeah she is! On the — she is high femme.
Nell: Probably why I have a crush on her.
Kate: Yeah! Like — like Kanaya, like — you wish that we were in a place in media where having a lesbian character depicted as associated with motherhood, having a lesbian character that gets a happy ending, isn't revolutionary, but it is! Like —
Nell: It is!
Kate: Yet again it falls on the shoulders of the humble webcomic Homestuck to break barriers in media! [laughs] But like Kanaya is this like — is in this story, like, a — she is the — the story's affectionate towards Kanaya. Like, she faces difficulties just like all the other characters but like she is — she gets to be special and she gets to be good and she gets to use that goodness to accomplish her goals.
Nell: She does. That's so true.
Kate: And so let's talk a little bit about Kanaya's self, before we talk about her relationships with other characters. So first off, y'know, all the trolls were originally based on, like, zodiacal coding. Like things of the — like signs of the zodiac. And I think Kanaya's is one of the strongest associations.
Nell: I think it — on the surface it is the most obvious. Like, Virgo is strongly associated with motherhood and with interpersonal relationships, and I'm not a big zodiac guru but like, it's — her introduction is like almost bats you in the face with like, this is the Virgo troll! Do you get it yet?!
Nell: And it's —
Kate: I prefer the extended zodiac to the regular one.
Nell: Oh, me too! I actually know what the signs mean in that one. [laughs]
Nell: But I find it really interesting because I feel like all of the trolls, while at their surface extremely embody the — so to say — the zodiac stereotype, deep down their complexity sort of subverts the initial expectation you get from it.
Nell: I mean, Kanaya being a lesbian is sort of — turns her motherly sort of coding on its head. It redefines the — like, her chastity modus is I think more symbolical than a lot of the troll modii are. Like we have — the trolls have all sorts of dumb modii because at that point modii became sort of a joke, right.
Nell: Like Karkat had the awful — that awful hacking modus that like, punches a hole in his floor. And Terezi has the scratch-and-sniff modus because, haha, she's got the nose thing. And — but Kanaya's is chastity.
Nell: It's the telling you that you can't have a thing until somebody else decides that you can. And like, the big association with that is that Kanaya uses the chastity modus to pick up the literal reproductive system for the remainder of the troll race.
Nell: And locks it away. And that is not a subtle piece of symbolism. That is —
Kate: Right, and then when unlocking it, like, it initially appears as though she is punished for it. Which I think is a pretty like — this is in — this is skipping way the fuck ahead from an outline that we were gonna do, but like —
Kate: In Murderstuck she, y'know — she gets out the Matriorb and then it's destroyed. And I feel like Murderstuck is a take on a lot of like, horror tropes and horror movie tropes. And like, the like — any sort of depiction of sexuality followed by being punished by the story for it is pretty common.
Nell: It's very exploitation — it's part of the exploitation movie tropes that is — that specifically Kanaya's part of Murderstuck is aping.
Nell: She's — she is the victim, she's the female victim and heroine of Murderstuck. But we only get to see her Act 1 and her Act 3.
Nell: We miss the Act 2 where she recovers from being, in this case, brutally killed. struggles with coming to terms with what happened to her. And we then get to see her — so we miss all that part. Then we get to see her post saying 'okay I'm gonna go do a revenge now' —
Kate: I'm fucking unleashed.
Nell: [laughs] What you've done is you've made this lesbian angry.
Nell: And also glow [laughs]
Kate: Yeah, that's a — so just as a heads up y'all, if a lesbian is angry at you and begins to glow, like you *fucked up*
Kate: Like you — we can all just do that!
Nell: If you've never seen a lesbian glow, count yourself lucky!
Kate: Yeah exactly.
Nell: You've never seen a lesbian truly angry.
Kate: [laughs] And for me — and we talked about this last week a bit actually — and for me there's this — and I know for you, and you've had some of the better takes about this — but like for me there's a lot of, even if she's not explicitly trans, there's a trans coding —
Nell: Kanaya is trans.
Kate: To her narrative. Yeah, she's trans.
Nell: Yeah, like — I've been asked a lot about this: 'do you think Kanaya is trans?' Yes.
Nell: And why? Well it's not — like there are specific pieces of the story, there's the — the connection between the Matriorb being like — like fertility as a construct being destroyed. Rainbow drinking and — as an extended — vampirism being sort of a fantastical interpretation of transition. The — her sort of distance from the rest of society and the fact that she is — she struggles, or doesn't struggle, but she's powerfully associated with these like — this femininity in a way that the other trolls don't feel the need to. Almost as if she has to, or as if she wants to, reaffirm it for herself. There's this affirmation that she does that comes up a lot.
Kate: See — so yeah, so she's concerned with her own appearance —
Nell: Yeah, she is.
Kate: To a degree that is atypical for trolls. She's also —
Nell: Yes, exactly.
Kate: Totally at ease with the destruction of her own society. She's totally fine with it, she does not mourn even a little bit for Alternia lost. And I've talked a little bit about this because the other troll that I see as very trans is Vriska —
Kate: And she's also very concerned with her appearance. It's a totally different kind of appearance, it's a ratty kind of butch look.
Nell: Right, yeah.
Kate: But like, it is one that she, like, that she like insists on, even like — y'know, like wearing it instead of her god tier robes to like do important shit sometimes.
Nell: Right, and she like goes so far as to like — to like reinforce — like Vriska does — to reinforce it on John, to like — this is my mark, this is my style, this is my identity, is this style of clothing. And by forcing you to wear this style of clothing I am leaving my mark on you. Which is a very Vriska way of interacting with transness, which is like, taking — like crystalizing her identity into something as simple as what she wears and then pushing it on other people to prove, like, not just that she is valid in her gender but also like, taking ownership of it and also of other people by nature of the fashion that she has put them in.
Kate: Mhmm [laughs] she makes John more attractive to her by making John look like herself.
Nell: John more like here. Yeah!
Nell: Which is — man. If that 'ain't some, like — I mean you talk about how Vriska's relationship with men is compulsory heterosexuality, it is very — it very smells like that, y'know.
Kate: By the way — again, we just go back to talking about Vriska. Here's the — Vriska and Kanaya are very connected.
Nell: They are! They have, like — there's a lot of history there that we don't get to see because the narrative is built in such a scattershot off-the-wall sort of way. But like, they have definitive history here.
Kate: Yeah. I mean there's so much history between the two of them — but we're not in the relationship section yet so let's wait on that!
Nell: We're not in the relationship section yet! Ugh, this — man, sticking to outlines is tough, I don't know how you do it.
Kate: I know, I — I usually just don't. [laughs]
Kate: I usually just don't and that's how I end up on Eridan every episode.
Nell: Ugh, man. I mean — so — I mean we did touch on that Kanaya is trans and her reading of being trans isn't just — isn't just like a headcanon but it is a way of interpreting specific symbolic connotations —
Nell: And also as a way to read the character imparts new and interesting depth into the fact that she's already a very symbolism-heavy character.
Kate: Right, of course. There's many axes that you can read any work of media by. If you read — if you take any work of media and you think about it from x lens it will help you diversify your own perspective on the work. So whether you're trans or not, or whether you're invested in a character being trans or not, like, reading a character as trans and like, giving it a shot, is a good way for you to understand that character's relationship to their self better.
Kate: And that's the same thing as like, looking at a work with a — with like a feminist read. Or a — like, a racial awareness read. Or a Marxist read.
Kate: Like you can take all of these different lenses and apply them to a work, and you come out of it — whether you end up agreeing that it's a good read or not — like, by understanding — by at least having the tools to understand why you think that.
Nell: Right, it changes how you look at things. It's like — man. I mean it really does sound like we're talking about like a high school English assignment again, like examine this character through this lens. But do that, because it's actually really interesting and complex.
Kate: Here's the thing, is that in high school they told you to do that with shit that you didn't care about.
Nell: Right, yeah, but now do it with like, Homestuck!
Kate: Yeah exactly!
Nell: It turns out it's really interesting. Also Karkat *is* a communist.
Kate: Karkat is a communist, he sure is. And — and yeah, and I feel like Homestuck — the reason why I do this show at all is that Homestuck is I think a work of media that like, teaches you how to ride the bike re: reading complex media. And it even explicitly references numerous media analytical techniques over the course of its run, in a way that I think is actually a good teaching tool.
Nell: The best — Homestuck is very good a telling — teaching you how to read Homestuck.
Kate: Yes, it is, and it turns out learning to read Homestuck is a great way to learn to read all —
Nell: Learn how to read anything.
Kate: Like, learn how to consume all sorts of multimedia, because of its wide, varied thing. Its wide, varied thing. There's my —
Kate: That's my big think, right there.
Nell: [struggling through laughter] Your big brain take! [laughs]
Kate: My neck hurts from holding up my giant fucking brain!
Nell: [laughs] Ugh, man, but here's the thing: you're incapable of being wrong, so —
Kate: It's true.
Nell: You're right.
Nell: You happen to be right in this moment as well.
Kate: [laughs] So back to Kanaya.
Nell: Yeah — yeah.
Kate: Let's do the part — let's do the part where we talk about an Aspect. And then every time we do this I'm like, ah, I sure am not optimisticDuelist and I sure am saying less smart things than he would.
Nell: Oh I mean me too. I — I mean, all of my biggest — all of my big brain aspect takes are like Aspects are one twelfth of the universe, you expect me to be able to — to understand all of what that means when it comes to one person, but we can talk about like, Kanaya's isolation. Isolation in specificity is — something that is unique to Space players.
Kate: All three of the major Space players we see start out their lives isolated.
Kate: Like, Jade on an island, Kanaya in the desert, and Calliope on the — y'know, chained up in a room.
Nell: Yeah. In like — and it's always a very extreme kind of stranding as well. Their isolation is imposed externally, it's not — it's not a sort of isolation that is self-inflicted. It's something that they as a player have to overcome.
Nell: And like, Kanaya — I mean this is probably the best way to segue into — to talking about Kanaya's relationships but the way she tries to overcome that while still being stuck in this desert is by being the, y'know, the village two-wheeled ashen device!
Nell: She is! Like — she sees — she sees a need and she fills that need. The need is for people who are quote-unquote "good at making at other people not kill each other". And I have a big brain take, is that Kanaya's fuckin' real bad at this.
Nell: To the point where actually every auspisticism that she's canonically been even somewhat interested in has ended with the death of at least one of the auspisticized —
Kate: Not true. Not true! Fact check! I —
Nell: Fact check?
Kate: She gets that little, like, ashen like thought bubble about Dave and Karkat.
Nell: Right, oh you're right. Man, it's really good that they don't die together.
Kate: Yeah right, that's nice.
Nell: They don't die, that would be really sad.
Kate: I guess — wait, I guess in the timeline where that happened they both did die.
Nell: No they did actually die! No, I *am* right.
Kate: Oh you are right, fuck!!
Kate: Fuck! Fact check — fact check Kate: fuck you. You're wrong actually!
Nell: [laughs] No, and this is like — like Eridan and Feferi die, and Eridan kills Feferi! Vriska kills Tavros! Like, Kanaya [sighs] Kanaya enters auspisticisms 'cause she horny for girls.
Nell: And — and she is [sighs] I guess I am gonna —
Kate: Are you about to — are you about to do this take?
Nell: I'm about to do this take. I warned about this take on Twitter.
Kate: You are braver than the US marines. Alright everybody, drum roll [drums fingers on desk excitedly]
Nell: [laughs] So Kanaya is basically just Eridan but a woman. I'm really sorry. I know I'm gonna get a ton of hate for saying that, but —
Kate: So you're gonna wanna explain that? Please save your tweets until you get done with this.
Nell: Yeah, no no no. Okay, so I'm not saying that she is — she's like, as hateful as Eridan is, but they both have a similar emotional need to be intimate with another person, and they impose on other people — Kanaya in a — in perhaps a more socially acceptable way by becoming auspisticisms in the hopes of having it change into a red romance with the women. Whereas Eridan is sort of more of an — a whiny bitch that sort of moans and like directly imposes on specifically Kanaya for — to be the auspistice between — I think it's him and Vriska at some point. And Kanaya's like, well I'm technically already pale with Vriska so you can go.
Nell: But — but Kanaya's doing the same thing with Vriska that Eridan's doing with Feferi!
Kate: Yeah, you're right.
Nell: They both wanna be red with the other person.
Kate: You're right about that!
Nell: The big difference is that Kanaya is able to grow up and realize that things have moved on, whereas I think Eridan feels jilted by the way Feferi breaks up with him and holds that until it pops.
Kate: Both of them do engage in acts of violence against the individuals that broke it off with them though. I think that is actually interesting and important to remember.
Nell: They do!
Kate: Like —
Nell: Kanaya punches Vriska in the face. Which — if she had done that sooner maybe she would have gotten with Vriska!
Kate: Yep! Absolutely, 'cause Vriska gets a little heart above her head after that, which is adorable.
Nell: She does! [laughs]
Kate: Poor thing. [laughs] And I think the difference in reaction to that is because they are morally different events, and this goes back all the way to episode 3 where we talk about like, masculine versus feminine rage in Homestuck. And like, the masculine rage of like, breaking things, the masculine rage of Lord English, like being this really frightening, scary thing which it also is in society. Like people get really mad at me when I say this but it is! It also is in society. Like —
Kate: And — and the female violence and the female rage in Homestuck is righteous, it's full of righteous fury. And it is —
Kate: It is like the — Kanaya chainsawing Eridan in half. It is the — or y'know, kicking Gamzee in the troll nuts.
Nell: Yeah, or also chainsawing Gamzee in half.
Kate: Yeah exactly.
Nell: Yeah. I mean I know it's doomed!Kanaya but that's still a Kanaya —
Kate: That still counts, she's still Kanaya.
Nell: It's still canon —
Kate: I wrote a very good thing that I haven't posted about alternate selves and Kanaya talking about alternate selves, which I should really just post.
Nell: You should probably post it.
Kate: It's part of a longer thing, though. I haven't finished the longer thing. Welcome to — remember when I used to write fanfic you guys? That was a thing. I —
Kate: I sure was actually pretty good at it.
Nell: Man, your — you sure are actually good at writing.
Kate: Well, yeah, hopefully I get the chance to — I mean y'know, now I get to do it for — on occasion for a very very good webcomic in Vast Error and I'm happy about that. But I just don't have a lotta time for more.
Nell: Oh are we gonna talk about Vast Error? Because if we talk about Vast Error I am gonna talk about my Murrit take.
Kate: I kinda wanna do — maybe let's do a bonus show after the end credits where we talk about Vast Error.
Nell: Okay well I'm not — we'll see how much I can keep up with that after — post-credits, because I'm not entirely caught up.
Nell: Which I need to be.
Kate: Alright. So I'm gonna read a quote from the most recent Homestuck book, Book 4 maybe, about Kanaya from the author notes. So cue the background music, me from the future. [BGM begins to play over the quote]
Andrew Hussie: "Kanaya has a fascination with dangerous girls she needs to keep an eye on, which sort of makes Vriska her starter Rose. A much shittier and more difficult to manage Rose. I mentioned Kanaya's enabling trait before, which Vriska almost seems to be calling her out on her. Her meddlesome, enabling yet condemning approach to certain relationships puts her in an odd social box which people don't quite know what to do with, and Vriska seems to struggle with it too. Does Vriska like her and want to earn respect from her? Does she want her to go away? Vriska's the type who sucks up to people and wants approval from them if they show apathy towards her (Aradia) and shows disdain for those who do the opposite, either positively or negatively (Tavros). And Kanaya confusingly exhibits both traits. Too cool, too aloof for Vriska, but oh, also she cares a lot and wants to protect her from her own dangerous tendencies. Some of it reads as simple attraction to these types of girls, but a big part of it also has to do with Kanaya's strong maternal streak, the need to mother certain people. It doesn't seem that Vriska dislikes her per se, but unfortunately Kanaya's conflicted concern-based approach to the relationship has dropped her right in the friendzone. Actually the place Kanaya finds herself in a lot is probably better described as the Mom zone."
Nell: I'm vindicated by this so much. 'Cause Kanaya's kind of a piece of shit.
Kate: Yeah, no, she is! She's like —
Nell: She's like — [sighs] she was too hot for Vriska to adequately stand up to her when she was auspisticing with Tavros, which only causes pain for Tavros. She wasn't — she wasn't troll enough to like, say to Eridan's face that he needs to show out and like — that — to tell her what Feferi told him — or her, sorry, like 'cause Feferi and Kanaya have a discussion about how Feferi's planning on breaking up with Eridan and then Eridan contacts Kanaya and is like, "I know you've been talking", and Kanaya's just like, "oh yeah, well I'm not gonna mention this thing that will — y'know, to let you prepare yourself. I'm gonna let Feferi", who also breaks up with Eridan in a very bad way, like —
Nell: It's not good!
Kate: They're all — they're all teenage disasters.
Nell: They're all teenage disasters, everybody makes mistakes in romance. But it's just the mistakes in romance in Homestuck get people killed.
Kate: Yeah, like — like Kanaya is really condescending at her worst.
Nell: She is extremely condescending, and like — she's like — [sighs] like she's too timid to tell Rose outright to stop what the fuck she's doing because it is sending her to her doom, because a part of Kanaya really likes watching Rose be this chaotic, like, causeless rebel who's just going around fucking shit up and absolutely ruining things. That's the —
Kate: She's attracted to rule-breakers, she wants — like she's attracted to rebels.
Nell: She's like the anti-Elwurd.
Kate: Yeah. Yeah, Elwurd always goes for the good girls [laughs]
Nell: Yeah, she wants to make — turn bad girls good, but she's really bad at it.
Kate: [laughs] I — y'know I've read this quote on the — just the like, four lines that like, sum up this aspect of Kanaya's character for me is "It's okay to be dangerous. Lots of people are. And dangerous people can be really important. Maybe even the most important sometimes."
Nell: That's — that is — I mean, yeah. That's so much, but it's also extremely true. Homestuck is — Homestuck has a fascination with dangerous women, and like, Kanaya gets to be a dangerous person herself at like — at the conclusion of her Murderstuck arc she becomes the dangerous woman that she has always admired.
Nell: And there's a little bit of, I think — not — like there's like, pathos in that, in that like she's achieved something that she's only ever tried to temper in other people. And to have it unleash in herself in like, as you said, this feminine act of violence. Which is *extremely* feminine. It is the most feminine way to be violent possible —
Nell: Because she accessorizes before, during and after murder.
Kate: She really does.
Nell: She like — like mid-murder she has like — before the murder she doesn't just bandage up her wounds, right? She wraps herself in the bow from the person who killed her. She doesn't just reapply lipstick, she specifically reapplies the lipstick that has been covered in the blood of the person that killed her. She has the — the glasses fall on her. Like she is accessorizing in much the same way Jack does in — in Act 5 Act 2 after killing Mom and Dad. But I think it's done more — it's done more subdued because there's no — like it doesn't make a gag out of it, it just happens. And I think that's really fascinating that like — the connection with fashion and murder is one of those weird associations that Homestuck makes that you don't really think about —
Kate: It's true!
Nell: You don't really think about a lot because they feel like extremely disparate events until you look at the story as a whole and are like [sighs] "what the heck!"
Kate: Yeah, what's goin' on here with fashion and murder, it's very —
Kate: Yeah, no, you're right, I hadn't even thought about that until you put that in, that's a visual symbology —
Nell: What does this mean?!
Nell: Exactly, like and I don't know! I don't know what that means. I — like, on the one hand I think like a lot of it is just Hussie doing his shitpost thing where he just brings back up, like obviously created jokes and recontextualizes them to make you like, think about things again. But like, part of it as well is like, I — her doing that imparts meaning to the reader. And I, like — I read it as her like, reaffirming her femininity in a way that a lot of revenge films have — the women cast off their femininity. And — to go back to the discussion of Murderstuck as an exploitation film, Kanaya shows up for Act 1 and Act 3 and she is arguably the heroine of Murderstuck.
Nell: And we miss the Act 2. We miss the part where — where usually in the exploitation film the woman — disavows herself of her femininity and like — cuts her hair is the obvious symbolism usually. And then goes to go do a murder. And Kanaya on the other hand is like, "I'm gonna tie this cape into a bow to hold my guts in, gonna reapply my makeup, then I'm gonna go do a murder, then I'm gonna reapply my makeup again". Like — "I'm still a woman and this act of murder doesn't stop me from being a woman", and that's beautiful!
Kate: Yes, it is. It's — man, I love Kanaya.
Nell: I love Kanaya so much! She's so good.
Kate: You know who else loves Kanaya?
Kate: Well, yes, but also Rose.
Nell: Yes, Rose loves Kanaya.
Kate: And Kanaya and Rose, they sort of start as this like, sort of dan— this like sharp-edged sparring match.
Nell: Act 4 has just like — just Kanaya's — the roller coaster Kanaya goes on with Rose — like Rose and her expectation of Rose is absolutely riveting.
Kate: It is!
Nell: [laughs] It's some of the best-written parts of the comic and it's the parts that I come back to and read over and over and over again. Because just everything from like, the — like, the — Rose's fourth conversation and Kanaya's seventh — the one where they talk about like, what order they're gonna have a conversation with — I mean that was the minute I'm like, oh, Kanaya loves Rose.
Kate: They literally — it's literally called out in the book notes of that scene, that that was the moment when Kanaya and Rose fell in love.
Nell: Right, like it's the moment where like, Kanaya puts a truly absurd amount of effort into actually trolling Rose, and little does Kanaya know that — that all of that is moot because the whole — the whole person who initiates this troll-off is John!
Nell: Which — man. John is the best wingman.
Nell: John gets every lesbian together!
Kate: Yeah! John — John is just this sort of effortless force for good in this story.
Nell: Good being: relationships with women.
Kate: Good being lesbianism!
Nell: Yeah, good being lesbianism.
Kate: Lesbianism is explicitly like, a force for good in the world of Homestuck.
Nell: [sighs] Lesbianism is a force for good in every world, let's be real.
Kate: It's true, it's true, but in Homestuck especially, like —
Nell: It is, like it's —
Kate: There's so many moments where like, heterosexuality is depicted as like, unsettling or repulsive even.
Kate: I always think about the like, Equius, like, Aradiabot kiss.
Nell: Man I — I love that bit, like it's definitely messed up and like complicated and convoluted, but I was *so* intrigued.
Nell: I was like, what is — how does this make sense?
Nell: Do they hate each other? Do they love each other? Why are they kissing?
Nell: And it's like — and the best part is he doesn't even like, jump from there into the troll romance, like he leaves that for like another couple of pages.
Nell: And then is like, okay well *now* I'll explain why they were kissing.
Kate: Uh-huh! It's — it is one of the most interesting parts of the comic, for sure.
Kate: But you know you obviously get like, Snowman/Jack, which —
Nell: Yeah, man.
Kate: You know [laughs]
Nell: That is — that is a relationship so toxic it destroyed and entire universe!
Kate: It did, yeah, and then like Caliborn's hitting on Jane like, kicks off the trauma of the Trickster arc.
Nell: Jeez, yeah. I mean Caliborn's weird obsession with belittling Jane is like a really — it's one of the most uncomfortable, and like I hate that I continuously laugh at it —
Nell: Parts of the story, because it's genuinely upsetting.
Kate: It is.
Nell: And it's not — it's like it's not funny, it's really uncomfortable. I think the only thing that like, I think — like he draws a picture of her that demeans her.
Nell: Like, that's like — UGH. And like — back when I was in high school that was a funny joke, like the — the blue circle that is supposed to be Jane with like, the descriptive words, because he was too bad at drawing, to read on it. But the words themselves are awful.
Nell: Like, that's how he feels about her.
Nell: Like that's not just — that's not a throwaway gag, that's like — he's repulsed specifically by Jane in a way that he's not repulsed by anybody else. Also yeah, Jane's canonically fat, deal with it.
Kate: Yeah. Let's see. The next bullet point here is about — we got a lot of questions about this — is about Kanaya's relationship with Karkat, which is —
Kate: Sort of a mirror to the relationship between the Dolorosa and the Sufferer.
Nell: Right, yeah. I mean Kanaya definitely I think sees — I think you'd agree with that like, Karkat as like — like one of the persons that she can mom on —
Nell: And not — and like, get away with it. But like she's like a genuinely empathetic person.
Nell: And I know I told it like she's selfish, but she's selfish and also empathetic at the same time. She —
Kate: You can be more than one thing!
Nell: You can be more than one thing. You can be a fashion queen and a lesbian vampire.
Kate: Yeah. [laughs]
Nell: You can be selfish and you can have — hold deep empathy for the people you're talking to.
Nell: And I feel like that's why people think — and I will get back to Karkat, I just — I think that's why people see her as like a good auspistice in fanon, is because she is empathetic, she does — she has the ability and the capacity to care about anybody and to see both sides of an argument and to moderate.
Nell: But she's — she's motivated by self-interest just like anybody else on this planet. Except with Karkat. She genuinely wants what's best for him, and the conversation she has after Karkat gets through arguing with himself where she talks about twelfth perigee's eve always really strikes me as like — this is someone who is reaching out to someone who feels similarly to her.
Nell: I don't think that they're moirails. I think I take a similar line with you, when like — where like, moirails is a type of romance, even if it's a sort of platonic romance.
Kate: Yeah, I just — I just don't think she's interesting in getting — y'know, she likes momming Karkat but she — but like I don't think she has a like, a romantic rela— I don't think she has a romantic interest in Karkat.
Nell: She doesn't hold a romantic friendship with Karkat.
Nell: She has a very — she relates heavily to Karkat. She is Karkat's best friend.
Nell: But he would never know that.
Nell: Because she sees Karkat as someone who's going through something similar with her. And they're going through something similar together. They — they're both isolated from society, Karkat because of his blood and not fitting in with — with how he understands romance to be, like he's — he's like, troll gay, which is to say he doesn't like — the quadrants don't work for him, like he — that's not how he experiences romantic attraction, it's more organic and muddled. And Kanaya because she's — she's physically isolated from people, she's been alone, she's afraid of — of coming across as unseemly to other people and she sees Karkat as this person who's like, the opposite of her in that way. Like people are drawn to him even though he tries his damnedest to get them to hate him. And whereas Kanaya works so hard to make everybody like her and fails miserably at that.
Kate: [laughs] Sad!
Nell: Sad! Homestuck is —
Kate: But then it ends up not being sad, and that's satisfying.
Nell: It is satisfying. I mean Rosemary has the best ending of the — out of everybody in the com— out of any relationship in the comic.
Kate: It's true. I'd argue it's tied with Callie/Roxy, but that — that plays out.
Nell: Oh, I mean, that's — yeah, that plays out under a much smaller time frame though.
Nell: Although it is — it's extremely good and very, like — Roxy is another character that just deserves good things —
Nell: And boy does she get it!
Nell: That's so good!
Nell: That's so great.
Kate: Yeah. So let's see — so let's get into our listener questions.
Nell: Oh yeah!
Kate: Pip asks on Discord: Kanaya best girl?
Nell: Kanaya best girl.
Kate: Eh. She's — she's fantastic. She's ten outta ten. I, y'know — you know who I think the best girl is, it's Terezi!
Nell: Yeah, of course, like — listen. Any girl in Homestuck is better than any of the best girls in any other piece of media, so like —
Kate: You're right and you should say it.
Nell: I — it's really hard — rereading Homestuck has made me realize how like, starved for good girls I am in other media, like —
Nell: Man, there's a lot of cardboard characters that have like, two interesting [phone plays a "message received" alert] Cool! Thanks phone — two interesting character traits and nothing behind it. And Homestuck is just like — I'm going to absolutely, just — like it's like a buffet where every meal is delicious —
Nell: And all of the meals are good girls.
Nell: [laughs] That -- that was way worse than I — it came across in my head, I'm sorry!
Kate: [laughs] That stays in, folks!
Kate: Dhonerous64 asks on Twitter: what do you think about Kanaya's strife specibus and weapon? We already — so Nell already talked a bit about the femininity angle, but what I wanna talk about is — that is Hysterical Dame's weapon for Problem Sleuth —
Nell: It is, it is.
Kate: It's one of the nice little Problem Sleuth references in Homestuck. And —
Nell: It is! Andrew —
Kate: And I use it to argue that Problem Sleuth happened in the Homestuck universe.
Nell: Oh no, yeah. That —
Kate: Which is just a boring — which is just like one of those like, time for some Game Theory, like I'm gonna go on MatPat and talk about how Problem Sleuth happened in the Homestuck universe!
Nell: If you haven't read Problem Sleuth, do yourself a favor and read Problem Sleuth, 'cause it's great.
Kate: Yeah, it is.
Nell: It is really good. Actually, on his book notes when Hysterical Dame is being introduced with the weapon, he goes 'Oh hi Kanaya — wait, no, wrong comic."
Nell: Which I think is like — it's good, but there's — this is part of why I do read Kanaya as trans 'cause there is that duality there between the lipstick and the chainsaw. It's also been brought to my attention that chainsaws were originally designed to help with C-sections.
Nell: Yeah! Yeah! [laughs]
Kate: What the fuck?!
Nell: [laughs] Yeah, look it up if you don't believe me. Chainsaws were originally created to help with childbirth, and if that doesn't tell you about how we — the terrible ways we have treated women as a society throughout history then —
Kate: [under breath] Jesus fucking Christ.
Nell: I don't know what's gonna tell you. Yeah! I can't imagine — I can't imagine. But that's just a fact, folks!
Kate: Mhmm, let's see. Becca asks: distinguished, functional, or disaster lesbian?
Nell: Oh disaster lesbian, that is extremely — that is extremely good at pretending to be distinguished, like she —
Kate: I think she's all three. I think she's like — I think she embodies all three at various different points throughout the story.
Nell: I mean like, yeah, but she's — she's a mess but she's one of those people that's like, as long as my room is clean nobody can see the fact that all of my trash is hidden under my bed.
Nell: Like — like she's clean but it's a very — it's a surface-level presentation to uphold —
Kate: But let's be clear, she doesn't literally have trash under her bed, 'cause she's a Virgo.
Nell: No, she's — she is a Virgo and she can't stand a mess.
Kate: Uh-huh, you know it must've bothered her so much about how messy Rose's room is [laughs] She's like, I wanna get up in there and clean that room!
Nell: I mean, listen. Kanaya and Rose's whole relationship is this dance of like, hating and loving each other in much the same way as every relationship in Homestuck is.
Nell: It's this animosity that is grown out of like, truly and deeply caring about somebody.
Kate: Yeah. Xtine asks on Twitter: why is Kanaya's favorite Naruto character Sasuke? No. We're not — no. Goomy asks on Twitter: what would Kanaya think of Kingdom Hearts when she inevitably plays it? She'd hate it because it has no interesting girls at all.
Nell: It has Aqua. It has Aqua, and I think she'd stay because she thinks Aqua's interesting, and then turns out that Aqua's kind of flat.
Kate: I've been — so I got the complete collection, I've been playing Kingdom Hearts for like — fucking, like sixty hours. Who the *fuck* is Aqua?! I'm not there yet!
Nell: Oh! Aqua doesn't show up until Birth by Sleep.
Kate: Jesus fucking Christ these games are too long!
Nell: [laughs] The games — listen —
Kate: I say on my podcast about Homestuck!
Nell: [laughs] Listen, okay —
Kate: Oh there was a really good question about Friendsim but like, we're runnin' over and I don't wanna get into it just now.
Nell: Oh we are running over aren't we.
Kate: Yeah. So I'm gonna wrap up with this question from Choboribi, who asks on Twitter: if Kanaya had not gotten her Matriorb back because of Roxy, what other means do you think she would've employed to get it? Would it have even been possible? Would she have tried anyway? The answer is: yes she would have tried, of course she would have tried.
Nell: Of course she would have tried. She would have — she would've taken John and like, throttled him until he teleported her to a place where she could retrieve the Matriorb from another timeline.
Kate: Yeah, absolutely.
Nell: Like, she would — like, her association with the mother orb is not just — like it starts off as a duty that she has, and then she loses it and she realizes that she actually does want it.
Kate: Yeah. And here's my thing, here's the thing that I'm gonna say, is that: is something possible in Homestuck? The answer is always yes.
Kate: Because the ultimate riddle in Homestuck is the question asked at the end of every character's introduction: what would you do? What will you do? And the answer is from the work that Homestuck references more than any other, The Neverending Story, the definition of the force of AURYN: do what you wish. And that's our show!
Nell: That is our show! [laughs]
Kate: The intro music is "perfectly generic" by goomy. The outro music now playing is just some nightmare with Mario Paint cat sounds —
Kate: I don't know why — I don't know why goomy — goomy was like, we have to play this on this episode — but it's — it's about Nepeta!
Kate: "Nepeta plays Kingdom Hearts and loses her shit over Lion King Sora.wav".
Nell: Oh man! I was — I was on call when goomy finished that and I got to hear it, and I was like, so you do know I'm doing an episode about Kanaya right? And her response was: yeah, but you have to play this anyway. So — that's good. Thanks. Thanks for being the President for Life of music on the pgenpod —
Kate: Yeah! So thank you, President for Life Goomy. Let's see, you can find this show at perfectlygenericpodcast.com, you can find us on the iTunes podcast directory, on Spotify, on the Google Play podcast store, on Overcast. And give us a review! There's been a bunch of reviews and ratings recently, definitely appreciate it, always love reaching more fans. you can find us on Twitter at @pgenpod, also on Tumblr there. You can find — oh and wait, before I move on to that — the Perfectly Generic Podcast will be LIVE from Burbank, California in March, on March 24th. We are going to have a wide array of special guests for our show. It's gonna be myself, Austin and Heather, the co-creators of Vast Error; Paige who you may remember from our Skaianet episode; Aysha, who's a writer for Skaianet Systems and The Strange Case of Starship Iris; optimisticDuelist, the writer and essayist; James Roach, the musician and audio director for Hiveswap; and Pip, the writer, artist and transcriber who is listening to me right now at .25 speed [0.5x speed, actually!] transcribing my words and is a hero for that. [laughs] That is going to be from the Guildhall Bar in Burbank, California that evening, we're gonna — the format of the show is simple. First half is gonna be about what's the most meaningful part of Homestuck to you. And the second half's gonna be a meet and greet and a discussion on Vast Error with me, Austin and Heather. You can find me on Twitter at @gamblignant8, you can also follow my main at @KateMitchellOW, the Overwatch League season's about to get started so there's — y'know, we're gonna have some fun over there. Where can folks find you, Nell?
Nell: Oh, you can find me on Twitter at @nellcromancer. And that's it. I don't do the social medias too much because they're all terrible for your brain.
Kate: It's true, they are. Except for Homestuck Twitter, Homestuck Twitter's been very good for my brain.
Nell: Homestuck Twitter's actually extremely good, and —
Kate: Yeah, it is.
Kate: [laughs] So thanks for listening everybody, we'll see you next week for something, I don't actually — I haven't actually picked the next show yet, so you know, we'll see. Yeah. Wow, what a fucking strong ending.
Nell: [laughs] Man, oh man.
Kate: Oh people are gonna stick around after the credits. I actually have to — I have to split, so sorry if you're sticking around after this fucking Mario Paint song —
Kate: To listen to a talk about Vast Error, we're gonna have to do it some other time.
Nell: Yeah, no, we can record an episode where I talk about all of my complicated feelings about Vast Error.
Kate: Yeah. I'm — I'm interested. I'm interested. It's always nice to — it's always good, I think, it improves me as a creator to talk to — to talk to folks who are like, well I don't really get what you're — I don't — I'm not fully on board. Like, I don't wanna surround myself with people who are like "you're perfect" and —
Nell: I'm like — I'm like — I'm on board but I'm also like hanging off the board on the back.
Kate: Honest feedback is important for creative growth.
Nell: It's a good webcomic that you should read if you haven't, but you probably have. Because it's like, extremely popular now.
Kate: I guess it is.
Nell: It is! It's extremely popular.
Nell: You done good!
Kate: Well, yeah, that's — y'know, I mean again it's been years of work from Austin and Heather and long time of work from Xam. And I just happened to hop on, like, right as it was getting super popular [laughs]
Nell: As you do!
Kate: It's been —
Nell: That's how it works.
Kate: Yeah, it's been one of the most creatively enriching projects I've ever worked on. The experience of working on Vast Error and engaging with the fans and seeing all the amazing things that they create has been awesome. Actually we're gonna have a thing tomorrow about Vast Error —
Nell: Oh! Yeah!
Kate: We have our — we're — we are revealing the first trollodex entries —
Nell: The trollodex!
Kate: Which is the cast for an upcoming project.
Nell: I'm so excited for that, I'm honestly extremely excited.
Kate: Me too! [laughs] Alright, see ya Nell, see ya listeners!
Nell: Alright, see ya later —
Kate: Have a good week everybody.
Nell: And have a nice weekend everybody.