Episode 47: Homestuck Isn't Fair

Floral joins Kate to talk about Jade Harley. Topics: Service to the narrative. Space as isolation. Action girls. Jade’s contrast with Homestuck’s other female characters. Calliope vs. Davepeta. Jade in the epilogues. Polyamory. Fairness.

Listen to this episode at https://perfectlygenericpodcast.com/updates/episodes/47

Transcript
Kate: The Perfectly Generic Podcast contains spoilers, occasional adult language, and Vriska. You've been warned. This show is listener-supported, and all contributions are split evenly with the contributors. Thanks for our Crockertier patrons: [names] for their generous support per episode.

[intro]

Kate: Let's see those toe beans! [laughs]

Floral: Oh god! [laughs]

Kate: [struggling through laughter] Welcome to the Perfectly Generic Podcast — Jade episode. That was about the worst way that I could have possibly started it. We have floralmarsupial, noted artist and writer in the Homestuck community as our guest today. Hello, welcome!

Floral: Hi Kate! Thank you for having me on. God, noted artist and writer in the Homestuck community — ooh, that made my heart beat. [laughs]

Kate: [laughs] And so when we have a new guest on the show I like to sort of start at like — the first thing that I like to ask is: what's your history with Homestuck? How did this begin for you?

Floral: Oh god, I've been here since 2011. I came in — I think I caught up with Homestuck when the ancestors, like, the Signless's art dropped. Because I remember the first thing of Homestuck fanart I did was a Dolorosa and little Signless. And then it was just like done (?) since then.

Kate: Yeah, so you're a fellow old school — you've been through all of it. What did you — how did you start sort of, engaging with the community, like where did you start? Was it on the forums, was it somewhere else?

Floral: It was definitely on Tumblr for the most part — I didn't really understand what the MSPA Forums were! [laughs]

Kate: That's probably for the best.

Floral: Yeah. I was younger. Like, not as young as most of these other Homestucks but like, seventeen, so I didn't really know about that part of the community. I didn't really become prominent though until — "prominent", god — until like, 2016, when I came back and I started making like, a lot of Davekat stuff.

Kate: The people just eat up that Davekat stuff.

Floral: Especially in 2016!

Kate: Yeah.

Floral: Like — [laughs] god. And then I've been here like, pretty consistently since then. Like it's all been Homestuck. My poor — my brain! [laughs]

Kate: Yeah, it's — Homestuck has definitely — it has a way of worming into your brain and then not allowing anything else to enter until you, like a totally normal professional with a real job, find yourself making, y'know — spending multiple hours every week making a podcast about it for — y'know. Like 50 hours total. [laughs]

Floral: [laughs]

Kate: It really gets to you that way! And so I've been a big fan of your work as part of this quote "Homestuck Renaissance" that's happening. For folks that may not be familiar with it, like, what do you — what are your main avenues of creativity in the fandom?

Floral: Oh my god, thank you! Basically I think what I'm most known for is like — I'm still known for Davekat but mostly I'm known for like, sadstuck. I like —

Kate: I would say introspectivestuck.

Floral: [laughs] In— yeah! Exactly. That's very true. 'Cause it's not just like being sad, it's about like, digging a little bit deeper into the psyche. And some of it's just kind of abstract. But I think that's mostly definitely it, especially after I did my inktober kind of thing where I like released like a bunch of very one-shot comics that went over a couple different characters and some ideas I've had for them for a long time.

Kate: Yeah. I really liked those — the documentary-style interviews. I thought that was such a fresh perspective on the characters, to have them sort of presented almost journalistically that way.

Floral: Oh, thank you! Yeah, I don't remember where I got the idea to do that exactly, but I knew that — I think it was because of Rose, like Rose gave me that idea 'cause I could see her telling a story about her dreams in that sense, to somebody, and then it just felt right to do with the rest of the beta kids. And kind of make a statement about like, thoughts I had about all of them, through like, how they'd talk about their dreams.

Kate: So, we'll put some links — I wanna put some links to those comics in particular in the description, so people can go check them out if you're not familiar with Floral's work. Let's get into the show. First of: this week in Homestuck. There's been — I think, y'know, in general it's like how when you go to a National Forest there's like a wildfire assessment level, like the threat level — and I think that Homestuck has that but for members of the Homestuck team making ominous tweets. And right now we are definitely in like — we're code high orange right now. The ominous tweets are flowing quickly.

Floral: I have so much anxiety right now because of fucking Homestuck. Oh my god! [laughs] Like, Homestuck Twitter: stop it. I can't take it! [laughs]

Kate: Consider this moment here, where I talk about those ominous tweets, to be my own version of an ominous tweet, where I stare directly at you the listener and say: [laughs] prepare yourself!

Floral: [laughs] Oh! I'm so scared!

Kate: Yeah! [laughs]

Floral: But I'm so ready, too! Oh my god.

Kate: And let's talk a little bit about — let's — no let's not talk a little bit about, let's talk a LOT about Jade Harley, actually, because that's why we've gathered here today as part of our weekly sermon at the church of Homestuck. We're gonna talk about Jade. Jade has always been a character that I had trouble accessing. Like, all the way back to her introduction. I never really — I still don't feel like I have a full grasp on Jade, really. Which is sort of fascinating to be able to think about a character for 10 years and still not completely understand her. And I guess before we get into any of the specific questions, I wanted to ask like, what does Jade Harley mean to you?

Floral: Jade Harley means — it — it's funny to say, but she means a lot to me. 'Cause I — y'know, honestly when I first read, I had a trouble accessing her too. 'Cause my first reread I don't know if I really connected with the characters as deeply as I do now, in any regard, and I just said that y'know, Dave was my favorite because he's everybody's favorite!

Kate: Right, he gets the laugh lines.

Floral: Yeah, exactly. But I remember when I was like, looking back at the grimbark conversation, 'cause I wanted to make some meta about y'know, Dave and his parallel with Davesprite. And I just remember like really wondering, like how this relationship worked for Jade, and like — and realizing that y'know this was a part of Jade that was kind of part of her deepest secrets being able to kind of unload onto Dave. And all of that resentment. And it kind of made me think a lot about like, what it's like to have relationships back then, like in middle school and shit with your like — people in your friend group. And from there I started looking a lot more into her, and she really is just like — she's the type of girl character that does not get to really be a big part of these stories because she's so — she has like, all of these interests and she's just so kind of like, in love with these interests, but she's also not very open and she's not a very honest character I don't think, because she — yeah, she on— y'know she dodges the truth through omission. And I remember one quote I found that really like, puts Jade into perspective for me — do you mind if I read it off?

Kate: No, go ahead!

Floral: Okay. Basically this is something I found: [quoting from Lindsay C. Gibson's "Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents"] "How Children Cope With Emotional Loneliness: Emotional loneliness is so distressing that a child who experiences it will do whatever is necessary to make some kind of connection with the parent. These children may learn to put other people's needs first as the price of admission to a relationship. Instead of expecting others to provide support or show interest in them, they may take on the role of helping others, convincing everyone that they have few emotional needs of their own. Unfortunately, this tends to create even more loneliness, since covering up your deepest needs prevents genuine connection with others." And y'know, from that, I really started putting the pieces together. Like, Jade's always the one left out in most of like, the Homestuck patterns.

Kate: Yeah, I think a lot about that one panel right near the end of all of them on the victory platform, everyone talking to each other, except for Jade, like isolated in the panel, completely across from the platform, asleep.

Floral: It fucks me up, like really hard! [laughs]

Kate: Yeah that's one of the — that's straight-up one of the saddest panels of Homestuck.

Floral: Yeah. And I just feel like personally that's not — that's a really nuanced kind of situation nobody talks about when it comes to like, really helpful, optimistic people. Because so much of their self-worth is put into what they do for others, and from my experience people like that, they do get really resentful and it does kind of —

Kate: Yeah, and well I mean it does come to the forefront —

Floral: Yeah.

Kate: Like, Jade has a temper. And it's something that — I find the most compelling part of her character is when her temper comes out and when she gets genuinely like aggressive with it, and part of that was like she got to embrace that with grimbark. And I've said it on the show a couple times before, but like, that — there is a genuine like, cathartic element to grimbark Jade, right? There is a part of it where this is genuinely enjoyable for her, to blow off steam in this way.

Floral: Exactly! Exactly. I adore grimbark Jade, and I also really like Jadesprite and that whole conversation is probably one of my favorites in Homestuck. And y'know I think one of the things that always kinda like, really — really bothered me I think — not bothered, but one of the things that always stood out to me about the ending and about Jade as a character is that she has that like, righteous girl temper that is so known in Homestuck, and it kinda feels like she's the only one that had it like, dissipated. Because after the three year trip all alone she's told, like, well this is what happens and you just have to accept it. And she does, like she just accepts it, and that's — that was kinda like, HM. [laughs] That was weird! 'Cause she is, like — but I guess that's 'cause she's not grimbark, so of course regular Jade Harley would just kinda be like, Oh, okay, so this is my role.

Kate: I — and y'know I think especially with Calliope's continuing meddling in the Epilogues, and even her own words about, y'know, the fact that all perspectives are biased, all narratives are biased, definitely shines a new light on that conversation between Alternate Calliope and Jade, where y'know this character — this version of Calliope spent her whole existence in isolation. She didn't have friends to message in the same way that y'know, our Calliope did. And never — doesn't fully understand the purpose of those connections, and finds solace in isolation. And y'know, I — it's — the thing about Homestuck, I think, number one, is that it isn't fair.

Floral: Yeah.

Kate: It is deliberately unfair, often, just as life is deliberately unfair. And in seeking to provide an explanation that seems fair, that this is your aspect, this is Space, this is — you are bound to the path of isolation — y'know, to make it seem fated instead of just unfair, I think is actually a flawed perspective. I think it's a flawed perspective that Alternate Calliope's dishing out.

Floral: I totally agree! Oh my gosh, I am so happy you said that, I am totally with you!

Kate: And this is the thing, is that for Jade — Jade is one of the people who is most hit by this story not being fair like a traditional story. Because she grows up thinking of herself as sort of a chosen one. Thinking, y'know, she's going to get to have all these fun adventures, she's going to get to save the kingdom that she dreams in; y'know she thinks of herself very much as the character in a children's story, and every bit of media that we've ever had tells us, y'know, that those characters — they go on fun adventures, they triumph over the challenges that they have, and they build closer connections because of it. And so much of Jade's resentment comes from the fact that that just didn't come true for her, and it continues to not come true in the most — in, y'know, new and devastating ways for her all the time.

Floral: Yeah, that's very true. And I think one of the things that always like, kind of surprised me about Jade — I don't wanna go too much into her arc 'cause I know we have questions about that — but one thing I did notice is that —

Kate: Go ahead, we can just move things around.

Floral: Oh okay, cool. One thing that always did kinda like strike me with Jade is that, y'know, in a comic with Vriska and Terezi it's really crazy, like, just how we never get an inside view of Jade.

Kate: Yeah.

Floral: I mean over and over, when opportunity strikes, it — she usually just says like, I don't wanna talk about it, and then — she's usually talking to John when that happens and he agrees. And I think that's kind of the catalyst, a little bit. And there's also the thing that Jade's not really challenged like other characters are because she's so, like, un-introspective. I mean, something I noticed —

Kate: I mean this is the like, whole That Family condition. The Harley-English-Crocker-Bert condition is this, y'know — is this desire to sort of press forward and act and put on a good face and not deal with the inner issues. And this is what I always think of as being like, the Prospit/Derse split, is that Prospit projects outward their personality, and Derse dreamers project inward their personality. And y'know there's no character in Homestuck that's more connected to Prospit than Jade.

Floral: Exactly. That's so true. And the really interesting thing that really got me into her character was that Jade really is like — not just an agent of Prospit or an agent of the Space aspect, but literally the overarching narrative. So much of what she does is in favour, directly, to the narrative. She foreshadows, she — her conversations act as a transition, or she'll be the one that breaks bad news to people because, y'know, she has like the goggles that give her like, omnipresence; she's also the one that — is the only one that finishes her planet quest, and she pretty much sets up, like — everything they needed, a little bit, to escape the Scratch.

Kate: Yeah. And Space is the narrative, it's no coincidence that like —

Floral: Yeah.

Kate: The character — the little author guy, the author insert character — is heavily identified with Space. And cosplays Calliope and wears a Space hoodie, et cetera. Space is not just physical space but also the narrative space in which the aspect continues, and Space is also tied very strongly to the game [Sburb]. Space players are mandatory to defeat the game, and a session without a Space player only exists in a null session or a void session — I always forget the difference between those two because it, y'know [laughs]

Floral: [laughs] Yeah!

Kate: The one — whatever one the Alpha kids — they didn't have a Space player because they were — they had no way to win.

Floral: Yeah.

Kate: They had to have a way imported. And for that it's — y'know it's — she's very similar to Kanaya in this way, in that strong connection to the game. Kanaya also grew up, y'know, fantasizing about the game —

Floral: Yeah.

Kate: And, y'know, because of her foreknowledge also thought she knew more than she did about how things would proceed. And it's interesting that, y'know — I wanna — I'll talk more about this a little bit later when we get into Jade's relationships because I think about Jade's — I think about Rose's sort of pointed distance in her few conversations with Jade a bunch.

Floral: Oh yeah. Oh gosh, I'm so ready! [laughs]

Kate: Uh-huh. But first let's get to some listener questions about Jade's character. Griever asks on Discord: "What would Jade do if she had the power to take over the narrative?"

Floral: Y'know I was thinking about this a little while ago, and my answer personally is that I don't think Jade would wanna take over the narrative. I think that — well, if Jade did take over the narrative without like, any growth, like Jade right now, I think she'd just end the story.

Kate: Yeah.

Floral: Everybody would be happy, the story's done.

Kate: Yeah.

Floral: Like, that is exactly — 'cause she's just that type of person, like, the story's been done, I want freedom from it: end it. [laughs] Y'know, she's not like Calliope who would want to keep it going for like the feels or anything. She would be like authoritative about it.

Kate: Yeah. And I mean, y'know, we see her biggest impact on the story — I mean, y'know, a significant part of Cascade is her, I would say, hijacking the narrative by summoning the fourth wall, by having control over the fourth wall. And y'know that is done in service of beating this thing, right? Of finishing.

Floral: Oh yeah [laughs] God that still like messes me up, like that — her whole connection with it is so crazy. But I think what I would really see, especially from like an Ultimate Jade, is y'know her making her own narrative outside of the Homestuck narrative. That would be cool. I'm not sure how that applies but that'd be cool! [laughs]

Kate: Yeah. And it's true that a significant portion of — she seems to be the one who really did the most and lived the most in the — y'know on Earth C in between the ending and the epilogues. Y'know she was highly active socially, to put it one way I guess.

Floral: [laughs] We'll call it that! We'll say it's like that, y'know?! [laughs]

Kate: Yeah!

Floral: That's true!

Kate: Yeah! [laughs]

Floral: Oh god. I remember reading that and I was like, Oh, this is real! [laughs] Ugh, god. But yeah I completely agree. Like, I mean, I don't see how — like what else was she going to do, sit in Karkat and Dave's house all day? Like, I — she'd go crazy. She'd literally go insane.

Kate: Yeah.

Floral: There's no way. Oh my gosh.

Kate: Absolutely frustrated by their inaction. Again, we see like — Xtine called Jade an action girl, and that's very true. She's — and I think part of the reason why, going back to the beginning, why I found it difficult to access Jade was the fact that I am not someone who accesses characters visually very well. I'm much more of a like, y'know, writing and introspection focused person in terms of consuming media. And Jade's biggest moments are all visual, right, like Jade is a key — a critical part of so many of the animations, and her powers are very visual, right? Her story is not communicated through introspective words about how she feels, it's communicated through movement, through action.

Floral: Exactly, yeah [laughs]

Kate: And that's very different than a significant number of the other characters, especially someone like, y'know, Dave, who just prattles on endlessly about what he's feeling [laughs]

Floral: [laughs] God, I know! During my Jade Harley reread I was like — [laughing] every time there's a Dave pesterlog I was like, Oh god! [laughs]

Kate: [laughs] He really — that fucker can go on! And so this —

Floral: He really can, it — all the red text, a little line of green text, ALL the red text! [laughs]

Kate: And this gets to a question from notedchampagne [on Twitter]: "Do you think Jade's character development arc was just incomplete, or that it never fully began in the first place?" And I'm interested to hear your perspective on this question because I do not believe that Jade has an incomplete arc, and I don't think that Jade — many people seem to think that Jade was jobbed by this story, or was let down in some way, but I think that's a very — again, it's a very deliberate exploration of this universe being unfair. And even if it's not character development that you like it still is character development.

Floral: Okay actually I was gonna ask you about that, because I remember I was listening to your episodes with Xtine and I remember you saying that and I was like, Ooh, I wanna hear these thoughts. But personally I — it really is kind of a wrench, exactly how you understand what would be a complete character in Homestuck, 'cause like you said, the whole point is that it's supposed to be a little bit unfair. My — what my thoughts have been, kind of like going over everything this last week, is that I do feel like Jade's character arc is incomplete, just because none — nothing that happens to Jade is really a outcome of her own choices, based off of her own motivations. And I know that's because she's part of Space and she's really close to Space, which makes everything about her kind of tied into what's best for the narrative. It's just — like I said before, like in a story that has like, Terezi and Vriska and so many character— female characters of agency, it's really interesting that y'know, we would get this — these really intr— we would get the scene with Jadesprite where we do learn that Jade has these feelings towards herself where if Jade shows weakness or if she's not able to act for the narrative, she gets irate with herself. Like she literally like beats the crap out of herself! [laughs]

Kate: Yeah.

Floral: And the fact that y'know her patron troll is Karkat even emphasizes that, and that self-hate. Because like there's this one part in their conversation directly after where he makes that smiley with his horns and she mistakes it for an inverse of one of her smileys with the halo on top. Like it's surprising that she would be like, so angry, and that she though that he was making fun of her. And I think that's such an interesting take, and then after that what happens is that y'know, Jade kind of rebuilds who she was before the story started. I mean she goes back to being this task master and she gets really caught up in playing the game and doing it right. She subdues Karkat and gains his trust so that he just kind of follows her lead, and then she even regains kind of what she lost from losing Prospit, because now she's taking naps into the dream bubbles and gaining all this convenient knowledge for the narrative. And she basically like — there's not — any sort of doubt she had at the very beginning of entering the game is gone now, and she's back to who she was before. And then Jadesprite, who is this living embodiment of everything that makes like Jade this really interesting character, deep deep down, what happens to her is that she has the conversation with Davesprite and, y'know he does kind of say like, Hey, maybe the reason why you feel this way is because you lack control. But after that what happens is that he basically just tells her a way to be useful, which is what Dave does to Jade in the narrative, and then after that we don't see Jadesprite again and she just goes back to being into Jade. And I don't see that as Jade accepting Jadesprite, I don't see that as her overcoming Jadesprite, I think that's repression.

Kate: Yeah, she sublimated Jadesprite.

Floral: Exactly, like Jadesprite learned a way to be useful to Jade and the narrative, and then she's gone and we don't hear any sort of like introspective thought again until grimbark.

Kate: In a way it's an exact parallel of Calliope possessing her in the epilogues.

Floral: Exactly, it really is! It's crazy. And for me, like, the fact that after that we do not get — like it's not just that the narrative's unfair, it's also the fact that I don't think the narrative — I think it's like, an active choice to not show any sort of like, moment with Jade, as far as like what her thoughts are about Davesprite and what, y'know, her thoughts are about this, that, this. Like everything — I really do feel like the things that happen to her post-Cascade are more in line with building Dave's arc and preparing for retcon and the themes in retcon than they really are about Jade. And I know that's part of the Space aspect and part of the unfairness, but it's also like — I don't know, it's really interesting that, again, this is the — probably the only girl character in Homestuck that never really gets that moment to talk about what she wants or what her motives are. And I really do feel like it's not the fact that Jade doesn't have those thoughts or that y'know, a character like Jade can't have those thoughts, but just that it's not relevant. Like, it's not relevant how she feels about what's happening.

Kate: Well here's my question. Here's the question that I'll pose to you, is: is there anyone that she trusts enough to divulge those thoughts with?

Floral: See, that's the interesting thing. Like we know in Act 5 that after she kills Dave, she goes hysterical. And she does actually talk to Karkat about that and — but the thing is is that y'know literally right after that she's completely fine, she's completely normal again, and he even comments on how weird it is. And I don't know, I feel like she could talk to John maybe but I think there's also the thing that, with nar— with Homestuck, that maybe, like they could even have done just like a pesterlog where she was going — trying to send it to somebody else, kind of like Karkat was doing with himself, and then of course like, it just doesn't send, or she could even have like deleted it or something like that. Something that could've given just a little bit of thought into what might've been like, the bigger thing with Jadesprite, instead of it feeling like Jadesprite is the girl Homestuck left behind. If that makes sense. But — [laughs] I just — I feel like there are like, different ways to divulge that information that could've just been like a very small — like, 'cause even Calliope — Calliope doesn't even talk that much about her feelings towards other — like, with other people. Sometimes she just says it to herself. And I think that might've been able to happen with Jade or something, but y'know, it's just not relevant.

Kate: Yeah. And — y'know obviously, again, that's part of the, I think for me, the unfairness of the story, is what does the story think is relevant for us to see, right?

Floral: That's true, that's very true.

Kate: And y'know so much stuff that you really really are hungry to see happens off-screen. It happens outside of your voyeuristic eyes in Homestuck. And part of the epilogues is — y'know, you the reader getting lectured for wanting to see all this stuff, right, for wanting to access it yourself [laughs]

Floral: Yeah! [laughs]

Kate: Instead of just letting these characters be.

Floral: [laughs] I think —

Kate: And — oh, sorry, go on.

Floral: Oh, I was just gonna say that like, at the end, I think I would've just — even if the same outcome had happened, if Jade had just been a little bit angry about what Calliope said to her it would — I would've like, felt maybe a little bit different. 'Cause that would have brought back those resentment feelings. It kind of —

Kate: Yeah, but y'know, right — immediately after that conversation she gets the exact opposite perspective on what the purpose of the ultimate self is, from Davepeta.

Floral: That's true. That is very true, but — hm. [long pause] Sorry!

Kate: And speaking of Davepeta, let's talk— we'll talk about Jade's relationships after this break. I'll see you on the other side, in the Homestuck zone. The boonbuck zone! Whatever.

[enter: the boonbuck zone]

Kate: Hey it's your good buddy Kate. Unless I'm not your buddy, then it's your internet parasocial acquaintance Kate. [laughs] Where was I going with this? Right: you can find this show on iTunes, Spotify, Google Play, wherever you get your podcasts. Leave a rating and review on these services if you can; it helps get the show in front of more people. I wanted to talk a bit about our live shows coming up. We are going on real, actual tour, although I don't have a tour bus. I should get a tour bus that looks like a perfectly generic object tipped on its side. We're gonna be in Renton, Washington, just near Seattle, on August 3rd at the Berliner pub. We're gonna be in Chapel Hill on October 26th, that's a Saturday, at The Pit; and we're gonna be in Staten Island, New York, on December 5th. Two of these events are free, the Staten Island and Renton ones, and the Chapel Hill one is a $5 fee — it's a $5 ticket, not a fee, it's a ticket — you get a ticket 'cause it's in like an actual theater. It's in a comedy club so we're gonna really be bringing the yucks. And the guests for these episodes — I'm gonna be joined by Aysha U. Farah for the first two shows, Cro for the second show, and optimisticDuelist and Goomy for the third show. Speaking of Goomy, their incredible music is playing right now, it's the song "oh, wonderstar" from "flowerverse", it's gonna play here and during the outro. You can find their music at smoothiefruitee.bandcamp.com. There's a link in the description, they're the president for life of the perfectly generic music team. And before we go I just wanted to say I really appreciate everyone who supports this show on Patreon, and I wanted to talk a little bit about what you get when you support this show on Patreon. First off, if you're a Crockertier donor you get mailed a sticker at your first contribution at that tier. But also you get [I]ntermission, it's an exclusive bonus podcast which now has 11 episodes and it features members of the perfectly generic panel, and we kind of just get absolutely wild with it. The first episode, optimisticDuelist and I talk about Rose Lalonde, and it's genuinely a fantastic — it's always incredible talking to Taz and it's genuinely a fantastic discussion of Rose. [I]ntermission 2, Pip and I talk about Snowbound Blood, Homestuck's 10th Anniversary. [I]ntermission 3 you can listen to for free on the website. It was the very first talk with Aysha U. Farah after the epilogues came out, and y'know we've got so many more episodes than that and you can immediately access this for just a dollar an episode. You can immediately access the whole archive of 11 [I]ntermission episodes, and it's always growing. I wanted to thank our Skylark tier patrons for their incredible support. That's another benefit that you can get from supporting the show, the ability to make me read [transcriber's note: but not to make me type] either your name or whatever nonsense you put in the name field on Patreon in the middle of our shows. And our pro gamers this moment are [names]. Thank you so much for your support. Let's get back to the show.

[end of boonbuck bonanza]

Kate: Welcome back, we are here and we're gonna talk about Jade and all of her relationships with other characters. And so first off, congrats to Jade for being one of the exclusive Homestuck in the camp to have kissed in the comic proper. And it was interesting to me because — I talked about a bit on the show before the epilogues, which was I saw so much of why I derived satisfaction from Jade's story was from that conversation with Davepeta and thinking about what they could have taken away from that, and the choice that Jade had between Calliope's perspective and Davepeta's perspective. And y'know if you listen two episodes ago with Trace, obviously we are — y'know, I — [laughs] I am slightly disappointed to have seen, y'know, the sprites not get to continue to interact with the main cast in any meaningful way in the epilogues. And — because that — [sighs] that late-breaking relationship and that character dynamic between Jade and Davepeta was so important to me understanding them.

Floral: Yeah, I can definitely see that for sure. I was actually — I kind of have like, definitely a perspective that I've been thinking about, about that conversation, and it does kind of go back to the character arc thing, but yeah. I totally agree, like I remember reading Homestuck and feeling so happy for Davepeta.

Kate: Yeah.

Floral: And like — and it really did feel like a conclusion, like, at least like as far as the arc of her having this sort of hard relationship and then the retcon kind of like gives her a second chance. I thought it was kind of interesting though too because like for the first time in Homestuck we kinda saw that Jade was about to break down and then Davepeta sort of takes her out of it because they do give her that different perspective. And then they kind of do what Dave and — y'know Dave has done for a lot of the comic, which is give her an out to be useful again to the narrative. And I think that — and that's really interesting. But I also feel like it would've been very interesting to see what Jade coming to terms with maybe not wanting to be part of the narrative would've been like. But again that goes totally in line with the unfairness of Homestuck I guess. But —

Kate: Yeah, and y'know — right, and me at myself, right, about y'know — well, I'm sorry me, that Davepeta didn't get to be on Earth in these epilogues, but Homestuck's unfair Kate! [laughs]

Floral: [laughs] Oh god I tot— [laughs] I was really rooting for Davepeta to get back on Earth too, like — I wanted that!

Kate: Well it seems as though they're appearing in candy, based on their — y'know, the ending of their appearance in the epilogues, so let's hope so.

Floral: I was like, I hope they get with like John's kid or something to be honest. I think that'd be cute. That'd be really cute!

Kate: [laughs] And so now to the thing that we wanted to — that I wanted to talk about before with the relationship section, was — homericHorror asked on Discord: "In Homestuck, the relationships between the beta kids are deep to the degree where almost every combination has died for, or was willing to die for, the other. The only pairing where this isn't the case was Jaderose. What led to Jaderose, as both a friendship and a ship, being so underutilised in Homestuck, and how would the story have changed if they had been closer friends?" And — I definitely — I think about this a lot because — it takes Homestuck a catastrophically long time to pass the Bechdel test, considering the fact that — like, considering where it ended up, as being —

Floral: Yeah.

Kate: What I would say is like, an actively feminist work of media that has some of the most prominent female characters with arcs that are about themselves and other women in any major popular work of media. But at the very start, with the first two women interacting, there wasn't any of that. There wasn't any of that between them. And I always think of it for Rose at least — I try to sympathize with Rose's perspective of, y'know, being — [sighs]

Floral: [laughs]

Kate: Rose is kind of weird and bad at people —

Floral: Yeah.

Kate: In a way that her — like her felicity with the language masks. But you see her interact with Dave and John and she's kind of a dick to them as well, just as much as she is to Jade. But both of them react to it better than — both of them are more natural foils for that sort of attitude than Jade is. And for me it's very interesting because I think about how Rose is, y'know, she's obsessed with knowledge. She wants to know everything, and Jade seems to know more than her basically all the time when they're growing up, right, and she's a mystery that is unsolvable. And part of it for me is also, I feel like a little bit of that early hostility from Rose towards Jade is that sort of thing where if you're growing up and you're not very good at processing your own feelings about somebody, maybe you really like somebody and you can't actually think of any way to handle that other than kind of being a bit of a bully. Like — [laughs]

Floral: Rose is that meme where like, she like sees Jade and she's like, Oh my gosh, this girl's so pretty; and then she writes the note Get out of my school, and puts it in her locker. [laughs]

Kate: Yeah, exactly!

Floral: That's Rose!

Kate: Yeah, that's Rose! That is extremely Rose. And the thing with Rose is that she ended up finding someone who really enjoyed that kind of like, tete-a-tete, antagonistic relationship, and wanted to sort of crack that code. Whereas, again, like Jade is actively running from sort of understanding people at that deeper level. She engages directly with the front that people put on. She thinks of Dave as a cool guy, right, she doesn't — she's not interested in breaking down the front of Dave as a cool guy, she's not interested in actually like — in seeing through that sort of transparent facade.

Floral: Yeah. [whispers] God. For real. Lord. And I think you're totally absolutely right. And I also feel like Rosejade, like — Rosejade failed because — so that Rose can — could walk. 'Cause I really don't think that, at least in their earlier character arcs, that there was like enough room for Rose and Jade to be closer when Kanaya's so close to Jade as a character and just different enough for them to work better. 'Cause —

Kate: It's funny, for me it's almost like — I mean y'know we saw in the author commentary a bit, but like Rose is Kanaya's like — [struggles for words]

Floral: [giggles]

Kate: Better Vriska, for her.

Floral: Yes. Yes!

Kate: Or as — like the comics call — the author commentary calls Vriska Kanaya's starter Rose. And I think Jade is Rose's starter Kanaya [laughs] in many ways.

Floral: Yeah. Good lord [laughs] which is really funny now that the epilogues have come out and we all know that Jade's a Vriska.

Kate: Yeah. Yeah, Jade — y'know Jade is the sneaky Vriska, she's secretly very much a Vriska.

Floral: She really is, it's crazy! I'm like — when I realized that I was like, what the *fuck*?! [laughs] But it feels good, like —

Kate: She's not quite so — she's not so actively, outwardly confident about it.

Floral: No.

Kate: She doesn't mask her insecurities by, y'know, stepping on you and saying she's the best. [laughs] But —

Floral: She just buries them completely —

Kate: Yes.

Floral: Like she doesn't have 'em! [laughs]

Kate: Yeah, exactly, but both of them are totally unwilling to look in their rear-view mirror —

Floral: Oh yeah.

Kate: Because of the massive amount of shit they'd have to unpack if they started to do that. [laughs]

Floral: Good god. Ugh.

Kate: Let's see — Athena's maiden asked on Discord: "First of all, why was it in the epilogue that Jade was mentioned to be really into polyamory?" and I kinda just wanna go back — so first off, I wanna say that like, I'm polyam, so please try not to take anything I say as a general — like, I don't know!

Floral: [laughs]

Kate: I don't even know what I'm gonna say yet but don't get mad at me about it.

Floral: I'm ready! I'm ready, I wanna hear the tea, Kate!

Kate: Yeah.

Floral: Give me the tea!

Kate: But for Jade's case specifically, and I am not saying this about all polyamorous people, I'm talking about Jade specifically — I wanna go back to what you said at the start about people with isolated childhoods, right? And I think a lot of that, for Jade, is — and y'know we do get it directly, textually, in the epilogues, is that like she has a lot of capacity for love that she's never been able to give anybody. And her cup kind of runneth over with it.

Floral: Yeah.

Kate: And she wants that companionship and she's sort of — she's just been starved for companionship for so long that, y'know — that there's a real motivation there to, again, if you're running from this loneliness within you, to slut it up! And I support that.

Floral: [laughs]

Kate: [laughs]

Floral: Oh god. I do too, I really do. I think it's really interesting when you consider G.O. (Game Over) Jade, who had like a much more realistic idea of relationships 'cause she got her like — she got her need or whatever filled a little bit with Davesprite instead of like being alone for three years.

Kate: Yeah.

Floral: I think it's really interesting that, yeah, she's so full of love but she's so *fucking bad at people.*

Kate: She is!

Floral: Like she's so — like I remember in meat, after she revealed her shipping name for DaveJadeKat, which was a little cringe for me personally [laughs]

Kate: What, luxury automated polyamorous gay space communism? [sic]

Floral: [laughs]

Kate: Or whatever the fuck it was?! [fully automated luxury polyamorous space-time communism]

Floral: [laughs] Yeah! It's so funny but they're just so like — they're so not dealing with it. That one con—

Kate: That whole scene was absolutely delightful [laughs]

Floral: [laughs] That one comment Dave makes to her where she thinks that she can get into a relationship just by making a logical debate.

Kate: Yeah.

Floral: And then she's like, well that's how it usually works. That fucking freaks me out, as far as like how, y'know — I feel like poly— I don't — like I feel like she feels — I understand why she'd want to be poly but I think she's a really — at least, where she is right now — really probably bad at it. I mean, we really don't know how she leaves the relationships that she has on Earth C.

Kate: Yeah.

Floral: Especially because they are for fun, like — and we don't know if they're like —

Kate: This is my challenge to our amazing fic writers in the audience: I wanna hear more about those two carapacians she dated.

Floral: [laughs] Oh gosh, yeah, and probably all the trolls. Like literally all of them.

Kate: [laughs]

Floral: That'd be so cute.

Kate: Yeah.

Floral: Also she definitely like, hooked up with Terezi, can we like be real?

Kate: Oh yeah, absolutely —

Floral: She definitely —

Kate: Terezi — like, Terezi knows about her junk, let's [laughs]

Floral: Yeah!! She knows!! Like, of course if you put Terezi and Jade in a room something would happen.

Kate: Right, Terezi's a profligate flirt and Jade's also a profligate flirt, like — y'know — they absolutely 100% hooked up. That is — I will — I would stake everything on that.

Floral: Oh god [laughs] which really — I'm like, where's the universe where that was not a fling and that was just a relationship, like where is it?! That's like —

Kate: Well they both had other things — well the thing is is that they both are extremely tied up with the people that they had crushes on when they were 13, still. And y'know — and that's like — like Terezi is very flirtatious and very affectionate but there — for the very — for the longest time after the game there was really only room for one pursuit in her life.

Floral: Yeah. Yeah, that's very true. That's very true. I — 'cause like I do feel like there could've been a chance if they had made a connection really really early on, right after the game ended. Y'know I'm not gonna say any more 'cause I have plans for that idea, but —

Kate: Oh I see!

Floral: Moving on! [laughs]

Kate: Well, it's like if — I think part of it is also just like, Vriska being there made everybody else's relationships better in the retcon timeline already.

Floral: Yes!

Kate: I think Vriska being there probably would've made all of that better, if Vriska was just around.

Floral: Yeah, 'cause then Jade and Vriska could've kissed, like —

Kate: Yeah exactly!

Floral: It'd solve everything!

Kate: [laughs]

Floral: JadeVris is real okay, JadeVris is real [laughs]

Kate: JadeVris is a fucking fantastic ship. Here's the thing [sheepishly] I kind of ship Vriska with every girl, actually.

Floral: Yeah.

Kate: I really do, Vriska's my F/F ship bike. SordidCondition asks on Discord: "In case no one asks, what's the best Jade ship?" And mine is — mine as discussed earlier is Jade/Davepeta. They're both —

Floral: Yeah.

Kate: It's just furry rights! They can hunt animals together and [laughs] and —

Floral: Yeah, I know — [laughs]

Kate: Just be weird furries!

Floral: God I feel that. I definitely — personally I like Jade loving herself. Like, I know that's not really a pairing, but —

Kate: No that's great though.

Floral: Like, I really do want at some point, even though Homestuck's so unfair — at one point Jade just like realizing that it's not about what she does for other people, it's about how she values herself. And that would be really cool — and then she makes a garden! Let her have her garden again! [laughs] Please!

Kate: Yeah, well isn't there a mention in the epilogues of her gardening with Rose and Kanaya, or am I inventing that? I know she — I know there's a mention of her going over to their home often.

Floral: There is a mention of her going over to their home but that's in passing. I think the only mention in the epilogues is her having a couple of plants in DaveKat's house.

Kate: Well —

Floral: And yeah I will refer to it as DaveKat's house. [laughs]

Kate: DaveKat's house. The DaveKat house. The beta cuck zone.

Floral: The DK house. The Donkey Kong house.

Kate: [laughs]

Floral: [sighs] Oh god.

Kate: And Gecko asks on Discord: "Piggybacking on sordid's question: what's your favorite friendship dynamic with Jade?"

Floral: [whispering] I was thinking about this very deeply.

Kate: [also whispering] Was was your — what's the answer?

Floral: [laughs] [speaking normally] I really — I think as far as like expanding on Jade's character, Karkat and Jade's friendship was really really cool and interesting, and especially as an inverse of Dave and Jade's relationship. Because y'know Jade does kind of like, re— like, [re]-gain back control of her stance in the game by — what's the word — basically by subduing Karkat.

Kate: [laughs] Yeah! Password, fuckass!!

Floral: Yeah, exactly, like she — it was so funny that she basically made everybody else linear while she got to get like, all the extra answers by napping and getting them from the dream bubbles. I was like, that's fucking tricky, that's some tricky shit.

Kate: Yeah. But she's very clever.

Floral: She's so clever. [quietly] I love Jade. I — so basically — and one thing that really kind of like, makes me like that friendship too is because Karkat over and over again after that happens says he trusts Jade to make this happen. Y'know he really does trust her, and then you have Dave who's just kind of like, still thinks that she's a liability and that she's kind of an obligation to him, because so much of what she does early-game is alpha Dave kind of like, pointing her in the right direction. But besides that, like, I think what I want to see from Homestuck though, what I really wanna see, is more John and Jade finally like — I think if Jade does get introspective with anybody it will be John. And it will be like a massive like — a little bit of a clusterfuck of a conversation —

Kate: Yeah.

Floral: 'Cause they're just so — they're both so like, repressed. And also 'cause like that's her brother, and that's the only — like, one of the only characters that she doesn't have — she has a great relationship with that's not romantic —

Kate: Yeah.

Floral: In any sense. And she kind of needs that. Also JadeCallieRoxy rocks, and so does JadeVrisrezi, and all of — and JadeRosemary, all of those are so —

Kate: Yeah.

Floral: Oh no, I went back to ships! [laughs]

Kate: Basically Jade just picked the worst possible like — that's the thing also, I think, to circle back to the polyam question, like — Jade wants a loving relationship and wants to sort of be a part of it, and I guess she kind of forcefully inserts herself into the middle of it — but there's so many better options for her!!

Floral: There are so many better options, it's so true!!

Kate: She literally picked the worst possible option! [laughs]

Floral: Oh, yeah. Oh god.

Kate: And before we — yeah, and I wanted to get to this 100% before we ended. Schiachperchten asked on Twitter: "How do you feel Jade English provides insight into her other self's potential as an adult?" And I think Jade English is the coolest of all of the like, parent characters of the humans. She's so cool!

Floral: She really is. And we know nothing about her! [laughs] Like almost nothing, but she's so cool.

Kate: I just know she was a badass grandma who wanted to — who wanted nothing more than to piss off the most powerful woman in existence.

Floral: [sighing, lovestruck] Ugh, yes. And I kind — I do enjoy that, y'know, this is a Jade that does kind of like, end up by herself, but she does so much and it seems to be for herself.

Kate: Yeah.

Floral: 'Cause she's just going against the Condy as hard as possible.

Kate: Yeah. And she — y'know she spends her time making scientific advancements and creating and — and it is a Jade that — I talked about this a little bit before — god it was probably months ago, but how like the beta kids' guardians, like the guardian versions of the alpha kids are them at their worst mostly.

Floral: Yeah.

Kate: And the — but the guardian versions of the beta kids are them at their best, actually. Like, y'know with alpha Dave and Rose, like you see them, y'know achieve an incredible thing and lead these successful famous lives. And y'know John is a successful comedian [laughs] and Jade resists the Condesce and is a titan of scientific development. Like, for Jade — this is also part of why — [sighs] Jade —

Floral: [laughs]

Kate: Jake is this — stop drinking — stop day drinking and, y'know, having illegitimate children and talk to your family, because you could provide some real insight to Jade about her other self.

Floral: Oh god, please. [whispers] God.

Kate: Fucking Jake English. [laughs]

Floral: I still wish we got more Jake English and Jade interaction, too, like that would've been so fun.

Kate: Yeah. Yeah.

Floral: Oh god.

Kate: Foymic asked on Discord: "Jade's arc is full of Wizard of Oz references, one notable one being the ruby-red magic slippers that allow Dorothy to return home at the end of her story. Yet at the end of Jade's story and in the epilogues she has no home to return to. Where's a place Jade could find a home, if there even is one?"

Floral: I was gonna say inside herself.

Kate: Yeah exactly.

Floral: I mean, inside herself, like that's where everybody's home is honestly. Like if you understand yourself like, you can go anywhere. But if you don't, and you're just carrying your kind of baggage with you hoping that a change in environment will be enough to make it go away, and that's — that usually isn't how it works. You have to deal with it day-by-day with yourself.

Kate: Yeah. And it's interesting that Jade — that Terezi takes Jade's slippers, because Terezi is also a character that has struggled with finding home. And y'know —

Floral: Exactly, yeah.

Kate: For Terezi she only felt at home with one person, and that person has an unfortunate habit at running off and throwing a rock at the biggest possible bad boss that she can find at basically all times! [laughs]

Floral: She has trauma! [laughs]

Kate: Yeah! Yeah!

Floral: She can't help it! [laughs]

Kate: No I'm not saying it's unjustified, again, it's — I firmly agree with Andrew Hussie that Vriska has never done anything wrong in her life.

Floral: Yeah.

Kate: But like, y'know, it is a little bit inconvenient to be in love with — it is actually, like, I love Vrisrezi to death, but it is a minor tragedy to be in love with Vriska Serket.

Floral: You know, I know exactly how you feel. I sympathize to the fullest! Trust me! [laughs]

Kate: [laughs]

Floral: At least Vriska gets to have these like, really cool like pesterlogs where she just fucking freaks out and you get like this super in-depth view into her mind. And then you get Jade who just like — Davesprite broke up with me — and then John's the one who freaks out about it! [laughs]

Kate: Yeah! [laughs] Oh man. I love all these characters. I like Homestuck. One last question before we end the show, dude'sonthisthingnow asked on Twitter: "Any songs you'd like to see a cover with a band made up of the kids (Jade on bass, John on piano, Rose on violin, Dave on turntable)?" And I just wanted to put this in the outline because it's an excuse for me to briefly mention how much I love a Chinese-American band called the Shanghai Restoration Project — and I find their whole discography wonderful, but Homestuck fans especially should listen to their track "Babylon Of The Occident", which has bass, piano, violin and a turntable. This was passed around on Tumblr a while back actually, as a a sort of — as a protean Homestuck song because it uses all four of the beta kids' instruments. It's a great song, listen to it, you might like them if you want some very innovative fusion of modern electronic music and traditional Chinese music. Give it a look. And —

Floral: I definitely will!

Kate: Yeah. And that's our show! You can find this show at perfectlygenericpodcast.com. You can find me at twitter.com/gamblignant8. Where can folks find you?

Floral: People can find me on Twitter as pocketfloral, on Tumblr as floralmarsupial; you can also find me on Patreon under floralmarsupial.

Kate: Alright, excellent. Next week optimisticDuelist will join us and we're gonna talk about the absolute state of DirkJake. The DirkJake economy is in shambles and we — and it is up to Taz and I to survey the wreckage and find out where to go from here as DirkJake shippers.

Floral: Oh gosh [laughs]

Kate: See ya next week, thank you so much for coming on, Floral.

Floral: Yeah, thank you so much for having me on. It was like, a big honor. Thank you.

Kate: Bye!

Floral: Bye!

[outro]