Episode 9: ♥︎♦︎♠︎♣︎

Nico joins Kate for a discussion on TROLL ROMANCE. We cover common misconceptions about each quadrant, how romance functions as sociological worldbuilding, and the new information we’ve gained from the Friendsims.

Transcript
Kate: The Perfectly Generic Podcast contains spoilers, occasional adult language, and Vriska. You've been warned.

[intro]

Kate: Good morning gamers, let's get this grubloaf! This is the Perfectly Generic Podcast. It's a podcast about Homestuck, like, you know how this goes by now! This is our ninth one, you guys are just eating it up. [laughs] This week we're gonna be talking about the contentious and extremely interesting subject of troll romance. This is our first episode recorded live in the same room, so sitting next to me is my guest and my roommate: Nico.

Nico: Yo.

Kate: Nico — that's good, most people fall all over themselves in their introduction but you with just a 'yo' — you ensured that you didn't say anything too stupid.

Nico: I've never said anything stupid in my life.

Kate: [laughs] So before we get into the subject of troll romance — let's talk about this week in Homestuck. Charun's route came out, as written by Kieran Miranda — it's a further exploration into art on Alternia and y'know, another — a look at a character who's a lot like Cirava, a similar sort of society burnout who makes interesting art about it. I was a big fan of Charun's route, I thought it was very funny and I thought there were some — y'know, I loved the like, references to Dadaism, because Dada was created as a response to like, rising global fascism, right, and —

Nico: Right.

Kate: So the absurdist art that Charun makes is a good commentary on the oppressive nature of Alternia.

Nico: Big agree.

Kate: [laughs] And then there was Wanshi's route by Lalo Hunt, and — I actually wanted to pick out a part of this route for the first excerpt that I read this week, just because it seems really relevant to what we're discussing in terms of — of troll sociology. 'You wonder to yourself, as Wanshi shakily takes it all in, if bloodthirstiness is a trait only certain trolls are born with, or if they have It ground into them by necessity, by expectation, by entitlement, by fear. Next, because your brain is wired around itself, you wonder the same about humans.' And yeah, y'know Wanshi's route was about like, how are children sos— socialized on Alternia, right? Like, how —

Nico: Yeah.

Kate: How are you brought up into this system. It was a very good route, play them both. There is a lot of great writing in them and we're definitely — we're — we're runnin' out — we're runnin' out of Friendsims now! We're running out of trolls! What are we gonna do?

Nico: Cry.

Kate: Cry, yeah. Speaking of —

Nico: Those are my plans.

Kate: Yeah [laughs] Speaking of new trolls, it's Sova time in Vast Error — the eleventh of the — the eleventh and second-to-last member of the cast of Vast Error has been introduced. I love her to death. I got to write a bit for her ancestor, so if you like the show and you haven't checked out Vast Error yet — y'know, please — please do, if only for the fact that my writing's in a little bit of it now [laughs]

Nico: It's also gay, so you should read it for that.

Kate: It is, it is. And al— also by the way, hi Austin, I know they're all pansexual, it's not — it's not literally gay, we're talking gay spiritually.

Nico: Yeah.

Kate: It's infused with the gay essence.

Nico: [laughs]

Kate: [laughs] And so before we get into the main subject, when we ever — whenever we have a new guest on the show we always ask like, what's your — what's your history with Homestuck? Like, when d'you first get into Homestuck?

Nico: Okay so I only got into Homestuck like, really recently, like in 2018. Like, I started Homestuck on like, 4/20 I think.

Kate: [laughs] Blaze iiiiiiiit!

Nico: [laughs] Yeah, and I was living in Tucson, Arizona at the time —

Kate: Hold on one moment. It was funny cause that's the weed number. Alright, go on.

Nico: [laughs] I was living in Tuscon, Arizona at the time with my roommate Ana who is a diehard Homestuck fan, been there I think since the beginning, and I really wanted her to watch like, this gay boy show, but she was like 'no, I don't want to, I'll only do it if you read Homestuck.' So I said 'fine, I'll read Homestuck' and then like, I started reading Homestuck and she never watched the gay boy show.

Kate: Wow!

Nico: And that was — that was the first time I was ever betrayed by a like, lesbian, I had never been lied to by a lesbian before!

Kate: See that's the thing about lesbians, is that we are — we are a trustworthy people. But when the betrayal hits, it hits *hard*.

Nico: It hits hard! Like I am heartbroken still, to this day.

Kate: Uh-huh.

Nico: But — yeah, that's when I got into Homestuck. I watched the Let's Reads of it on YouTube because I'm dyslexic and it was not written in a good font for me, so because of that I actually have not finished reading Homestuck.

Kate: You're like — you like, know what happens, you just —

Nico: But I know what happens —

Kate: You haven't read the literal words.

Nico: Yeah, like I've read all of the wiki articles, and all of the meta posts [laughs] so like essentially I know like, how it ends.

Kate: You are not — the thing is, is that you're not even the first guest on this show to have not finished Homestuck, and I'm — I'm calling out Heather from Episode 2, Sparaze has not finished Homestuck either. And —

Nico: Modern Homestuck culture is not having enough time to finish Homestuck.

Kate: [laughs] I mean that's fair, it is longer than the Bible.

Nico: [laughs]

Kate: So, speaking of the Bible — actually it's not speaking of the Bible, that's —

Nico: [laughs]

Kate: Like, the worst transition I've ever done on this show! [laughs]

Nico: [laughs]

Kate: So speaking of Jesus Christ, our lord and savior — let's talk about troll romance [laughs]

Nico: Of course! Which actually we can like, bridge that right there to Kankri or the Signless I guess actually.

Kate: Yeah that's true, but we're not. We won't.

Nico: We won't?

Kate: 'Cause we're not talkin' about troll religion.

Nico: Well no I'm not talking about troll religion, I'm just saying he's Jesus and also he like, reaches out of like, quadrant boundaries —

Kate: It's true.

Nico: Which is something interesting.

Kate: It's true. You — you are — you are rubbing up against the fact that I don't give a shit about Kankri [laughs]

Nico: I know!

Kate: [laughs] So it's really difficult — it's really difficult for me to engage constructively on this! [laughs]

Nico: See Kate hates all of my favorite characters.

Kate: Yeah, it's true.

Nico: Mhmm.

Kate: It's 'cause your favorite characters are bad!

Nico: That's why they're my favorite!

Kate: [laughs] [tries to recover] [laughs again] Welcome to the Eridan episode of the Perfectly Generic Podcast! No — that would require him to have actually gotten any romantic action! [laughs]

Nico: I mentioned Eridan in the outline, so —

Kate: Uh-huh. I cut it I think. Oh wait, no I didn't cut it, it's still here!

Nico: It's right there!

Kate: Yeah — yeah I didn't cut Eridan, so let's get into it —

Nico: See, if you cut Eridan I'm going to have to — have to like, cut Vriska.

Kate: [sighs] Okay, well I mean — I was gonna cut them both, frankly, but I didn't. We're also seven minutes [transcriber's note: and 1267 words!] in and we haven't talked about *anything* yet! [laughs] So — one of the things that fascinates me about Homestuck and about Alternia and trolls in general is that, when people write stories about aliens, and even like, well-regarded series like Mass Effect or Star Trek are subject to this, like — they have relationships that are pretty much just one-to-one analogs to human relationships. They have human friendships, and they have — y'know, they fall in love like humans do — like it's not super interesting or different. The quadrant system and troll romance is one of the most innovative takes on romance as sociological world-building. What do you think about that?

Nico: Yeah, I think that's really good, it's really interesting, very complicated compared to like, what most world-building has — just like, world-building in general in Homestuck was very vast but also kind of loose: that way we could have our own interpretation of it. And I think that also comes in hand with troll romance as well. There's a lot of different ways to interpet— interpret it, and view it.

Kate: Mhmm. I think Homestuck's world-building is done in a pretty elegant a like, scale-able way in general, in that it's heavily category based. You create these categories, you create Aspects, you create Classes, you create blood colors, you create different romantic categories — like, you create all of those and then you can just mix them together to make characters, right? Like you can just generate them that way, it's — it's an iterative type of like — it's almost like procedural character design.

Nico: Right.

Kate: It's really fascinating, it's what lets the cast be so large and still be mostly manageable and comprehend-able, and that's seen even more in Hiveswap.

Nico: Yeah.

Kate: So obviously you can't talk about quadrants without talking about their compulsory nature on Alternia.

Nico: Yeah.

Kate: They are — they are corrupted and used by authoritarianism, and I always think about Nineteen Eighty-Four —

Nico: Mhmm.

Kate: And I know that's played-out, but this specifically is a good reference to Nineteen Eighty-Four, please stick with me!

Nico: [laughs]

Kate: I am not the kid in your — in your col— in your freshman philosophy class that just makes everything about Nineteen Eighty-Four — there is a specific anti-sex league that is all about not having sex that's not for reproduction, and only — and only doing the do for the Nation, like, y'know, for the State. And that is exactly what mates— matespritships and kismesissitudes are structured around in Alternian society, it's literally: if you don't do these you die, and you're doing them for the Empire. Lie back and think of England!

Nico: [laughs]

Kate: And so, y'know, it — a lot of people are negative on the idea of quadrants, and I didn't pick out any reader questions about these specifically but it's true that the societal imposition of quadrants in Alternia is fucked up.

Nico: Yes.

Kate: But quadrants weren't invented by the Alternian Empire, they weren't invented by Doc Scratch.

Nico: Exactly, we can see that because they clearly take place on Beforus.

Kate: Mhmm.

Nico: So clearly this is something that's just inherent in trolls. This is a system that they liked before this society. However it has been corrupted by the societal disposition that they live in.

Kate: Mhmm. And y'know — because of that compulsory nature of quadrants, our more ambitious characters, our characters are characters more focused on survival and social status tend to be somewhat obsessed with —

Nico: Yes.

Kate: Quadrants, and with —

Nico: Such as Vriska and Eridan, you have two very ambitious characters — also not very well-liked characters but nonetheless very ambitious characters —

Kate: Mhmm.

Nico: And both of them, who are extremely pushy about romance, Vriska towards Tavros and Eridan towards Feferi, likely because the realization that you need to fill these quadrants to survive, because if you don't have them filled you're going to get executed in the name of the Empire!

Kate: Mhmm. Yeah. And — and it's — it's clearly something that y'know — that weighs on these trolls even in their adolescence before it's mandatory.

Nico: Exactly.

Kate: And it — it is — it is a huge psychic pressure, and I will — [sighs deeply]

Nico: [laughs]

Kate: I will be slightly sympathetic to Eridan for his attitudes toward romance because of that. Cronus has *no* excuse!

Nico: Yeah! Very true!

Kate: That's the thing — Cronus? No excuse [laughs] But Eridan [sighs deeper] slight —

Nico: [laughs]

Kate: Excuse. *Slight*. That also brings us to sexuality on Alternia. So there was a what I would call slight retcon of sexuality among trolls —

Nico: Yes.

Kate: And one that I quite appreciated —

Nico: [laughs]

Kate: And I'm fine with. There's no— retcon's aren't bad —

Nico: Yeah.

Kate: When they make the story better. So Formspring comments initially painted Kanaya's lesbianism as a very rare exception and to much controversy compared it to a fetish, which let's —

Nico: Yeah, that —

Kate: We're not gonna discourse about that.

Nico: That was not good.

Kate: No.

Nico: I originally had a bullet-point on here about that, but I decided to remove it because like —

Kate: We all agree it's not good and it literally got retconned out, so I — so like, we don't — there's no use complaining about it, like it got — it's not good and it got taken out, so fine!

Nico: Yeah!

Kate: [laughs] But Elwurd's route showed that there are, like, gender-specific preferential communities on Alternia, and they have their own spaces, they have their own media, as shown by the poster for troll Carol —

Nico: [laughs]

Kate: [laughs] And — and y'know, they have their own culture and history. And obviously I appreciate that a lot —

Nico: Yeah.

Kate: And y'know, this is not a — this is not an episode about troll gender, but that's still a fascinating topic —

Nico: Absolutely.

Kate: Y'know, trolls are pansexual by default and gender does not play a function in the reproductive process, so gender, even more so than it is in humans, is entirely a social construct among trolls.

Nico: Yes.

Kate: [stage whisper] Here's the pro-tip. It's entirely a social construct among humans too! Pass it on.

Nico: [laughs]

Kate: [laughs] But y'know, even more so among trolls, like there's genuinely no reason for it, but it's still something that's important to some characters' identities —

Nico: Yeah.

Kate: There is such a thing as sexism on Alternia —

Nico: Mhmm.

Kate: And there are, y'know, people who prefer one gender over the other, sometimes exclusively. Why do you — like, where — like, how do you think that works?

Nico: I have a lot of opinions on this —

Kate: Uh-huh.

Nico: So much that we could fill an entire different podcast with it.

Kate: We should do that some time!

Nico: [laughs]

Kate: Now this part of the show, we're gonna get into four parts where we talk about each of the four quadrants. And so the first one, and the most — what is it often termed, the most obvious one, even in the story itself and even by the narrator in Friendsim — is matespritship, which is — first off it's an etymology of mate and esprit — like the French for, y'know, spirit, y'know, the fuckin' — the soul. It's like, y'know, it's your — it's a soulmate, it's just 'soulmate' turned around. This is how Homestuck words work, it's just a very simple portmanteau that y'know — it just does it — that's just slightly different than you're used to. And it's most comparable to Eros, y'know, the physical love —

Nico: Yes.

Kate: Of — of Classical Greek philosophy.

Nico: And also very passionate love.

Kate: Mhmm.

Nico: Which I think is — see there's sort of like, this idea that matespritship is human romance, it gets likened to human romance the most — I don't agree with that.

Kate: Mhmm.

Nico: Because it suggests that fiery passion, it's not extremely emotional —

Kate: Mhmm. Yeah, and so — I think it's inarguable that, for example, Rose's relationship with Kanaya and Dave's relationship with Karkat are not exclusively flushed relationships. They include pale elements and —

Nico: Absolutely.

Kate: Some black elements as well, like — y'know, they — they are not — those two relationships are not segmented into a matespritship, that is not an accurate analog for a human boyfriend, girlfriend or partner.

Nico: Yeah.

Kate: And I think you can see that a little bit in — were Bronya and Elwurd...? Here, let's just talk about concuscipient [sic]

Nico: [laughs]

Kate: Let's just talk about both of them at once, cause Bronya and Elwurd were, y'know, like, in one of the two concuscipient [sic] [transcriber's note: Kate is trying to say concupiscent here, and I'm being a meanie] quadrants. It's not clear which one they were in —

Nico: Right.

Kate: But like, Elwurd walked away because Bronya wanted too much emotionally, and that just like —

Nico: Yeah.

Kate: Didn't fit with her conception of how that relationship would have worked, and I think that's a really good example —

Nico: Absolutely.

Kate: Of — of y'know, like — the limits of matespritship as an emotional thing. Whereas — y'know we contrast it in moving on to the next quadrant, which is moirallegiance.

Nico: Yes.

Kate: Which is — that's a portmanteau of Moira, a f— a myth figure tied to fate and also the hottest Overwatch character —

Nico: [laughs]

Kate: [laughs] And 'allegiance', which y'know, allegiance. [laughs]

Nico: Allegiance.

Kate: Yeah, moirallegiance. And that's the analog in the — and y'know *this* is — I think that moirallegiance is much closer to the — to like, what we call quote 'human love' if we had to fuckin' put it —

Nico: Yeah.

Kate: Into one quick little thing, which obviously it can't be.

Nico: Uh-huh.

Kate: It's — and it's the closest to the Greek philosophical concept of Philia. And Aristotle said, on Philia in his rhetoric, a thing that I think is a really good description of moirallegiance as well, and that's 'wanting for someone what one thinks good, for his sake, and not for one's own, and being inclined so far as one can to do such things for him.' And on the MSPA forum a few months after this romantic system was released, Andrew Hussie said 'the purpose is to pacify a partner who's dangerous, it's not all about being platonic soul-bros forever. None of the kids at this moment would work in a relationship like this, except Rose, pretty obviously.'

Nico: Mhmm.

Kate: Which is, again, the first example of how like, Rose and Kanaya's relationship is not just strictly a matespritship, like —

Nico: Yeah.

Kate: Like, literally part of the initial appeal was a moirallegiance appeal for Kanaya. And so, y'know, you got — you got some hot — you got a hot take, a big hot take that I agree with about moirallegiance, which is that it —

Nico: It's not platonic!

Kate: Yeah exactly.

Nico: Fuck you!

Kate: Yeah [laughs] It's romantic!

Nico: It is! It is.

Kate: It's — it's literally explicitly called romantic —

Nico: I mean — it's literally called troll romance —

Kate: Uh-huh.

Nico: Like, what part of romance do you people not get?

Kate: Yeah.

Nico: Like I don't mean to be rude, but like —

Kate: [laughs]

Nico: It's definitely — it's definitely a romantic sort of relationship that's very like, heavy on emotion.

Kate: Mhmm.

Nico: And I think a lot of people separate it from romance because of the lack of physical interaction that goes on around there.

Kate: But even then, y'know, moirallegiances have been shown to have like — there is physical intimacy —

Nico: Yes.

Kate: In moirallegiances, right? Like, y'know — there is — there is — it's non-sexual physical intimacy.

Nico: Yeah, and I think it's the non-sexual bit that seems to have people hung up on it, which is very sad.

Kate: Well that's allosexuals for you.

Nico: [laughs]

Kate: They don't understand. [laughs]

Nico: Kate and I get attacked for being asexual on the podcast.

Kate: Yeah, hi — no, seriously, if you — if you wanna start discourse about that, I would like you to look yourself in the mirror and ask if that's really what you wanna do with your day [laughs]

Nico: Please say no to the reflection!

Kate: [laughs] Yeah! But like, moirallegiance *is* romantic!

Nico: It is, it is romantic, and it's the — it's the emotional side of the relationship which is very like, important, especially in the society that they are in, to have somebody to be able to confide in about like, all the horror that goes on around them. Somebody that they can depend on and trust.

Kate: Mhmm.

Nico: And especially for the whole — sort of pacifier sort of relationship — is also definitely important, more so on Alternia than I would think Beforus, I definitely think that's something that got added in because of Alternia — because of the violent nature of Alternian society.

Kate: And — and the third quadrant, kismesissitude.

Nico: Mhmm.

Kate: Kismesis — it's a combination of — of 'kismet' and 'nemesis'.

Nico: Oh also, fun fact, 'nemesis' has two definitions, which I think is really good because this sort of relationship can really go two ways. So the first definition of 'nemesis' is the inescapable agent of somebody's downfall; or a long-standing rival.

Kate: Mhmm.

Nico: Now I think in a healthy kismesis —

Kate: Kismesissitude?

Nico: Kis— [laughs] in a healthy kismesissitude —

Kate: People have to use my terms when they're sitting right next to me, it's a wonderful — it's a wonderful change from the podcast. Sorry, go on?

Nico: A healthy kismesissitude would definitely be a long-term rivalry, two people pushing each other to do better. It's not necessarily, I don't think, hatred, but more of hatred of the fact that another person isn't doing their best when they could be —

Kate: Mhmm.

Nico: So wanting to push them in that direction of doing better for themselves —

Kate: Mhmm.

Nico: And the people around them. Wherein you can also do it the *other* way, in a more abusive way, sort of how we see Gamzee and Terezi as the downfall of a person.

Kate: Mhmm. Yeah, and — and that was also true of — of a couple of other relationships, y'know —

Nico: Yeah.

Kate: Mindfang and Orphaner Dualscar —

Nico: Yes.

Kate: And y'know, a number — like, there were not an abundance, or even really *any* healthy kismesissitudes shown in Homestuck proper.

Nico: Yes.

Kate: There's a bit of pitch flirting between John and Terezi that's cute.

Nico: Yes.

Kate: But there's really nothing shown, like — y'know, we see the fucked up ones and we're told that they're fucked up but we don't actually get a good example of them working properly.

Nico: And again I think that's because of society on Alternia —

Kate: Mhmm.

Nico: Breeding such violent people in the society — there's not going to be a lot of healthy relationships in general, even when coming to the other quadrants, because of all that anger and rage that you've got built up in these kids.

Kate: Mhmm, and I mean, in — y'know, you see in Friendsim — which y'know, gets to sort of dive a lot deeper into the world of Alternia 'cause it's not destroyed, like, fifty pages into mentioning it. Y'know, the — like, Friendsim does get to get into it a little more, and you do see what a — what looks like a — a healthy and really adorable black relationship between Tagora and Galekh —

Nico: Uh-huh.

Kate: And you also see — y'know, you also see what looks to be like, actual black flirting between Skylla and Konyyl —

Nico: Yeah.

Kate: In — in Konyyl's route. And you know, you — you get a — a better look at like, ah, it's about — y'know, it's about challenging somebody, it's about making somebody be like, oh, I — I hate that you can like — you identify this thing that like, annoys me so much and makes me wanna change.

Nico: Mhmm.

Kate: And it's, y'know — it's a very positive thing. And that's also how kismesissitude's are written in Vast Error — not to always make the podcast about that, but I like it, just because Dismas and Murrit is one of the core relationships of that work, and it's one of the cooler troll relationships I've seen written in any media. It's just —

Nico: Right.

Kate: A really well-done kismesissitude.

Nico: And then like, I sort of like, have this galaxy brain take that kismesissitude is a requirement instead of just matespritship to fill buckets because of the fact of the nature of Alternia's society being so violent — that if you didn't have these sort of antagonistic relationships to, in a way, pent off that energy, you would just have a bunch of mindless murder going around.

Kate: Mhmm.

Nico: So that's my hot take of the day.

Kate: Yeah, you, y'know — if — if the sort of normal violent interactions between trolls can occasionally be, y'know, cooled down by being — by becoming a stable relationship instead of just resulting in death, then —

Nico: Yes.

Kate: Y'know, that helps, and imposing that definitely helps society. At least —

Nico: In a way.

Kate: From the Empire's p—

Nico: In a — in — in

Kate: Yeah, in a way — at least from the Empire's perspective.

Nico: Yes, from the people-in-charge's perspective it's definitely a way to control the populace.

Kate: Mhmm. And now — and now.

Nico: [laughs]

Kate: [drumming on a table] [clap] It's the one that — it's the one that I literally — a number of the questions in — a number of the listener questions this week were just: what the fuck is auspisticism? So first off: say it with me. Oss-piss-tiss-ism.

Nico: Auspisticism.

Kate: Look, you did it!

Nico: I practiced.

Kate: You practiced! I'm so proud of you! Auspisticism — so it is extremely hard to say. An— Andrew said in a Formspring: 'I am secretly trolling you by coming up with words like auspisticization. This is the one and only time I will admit to trolling you about anything.' And I — I think that auspisticism is most comparable to the — to the Greek philosophical Agape —

Nico: Yes.

Kate: The highest form of love: charity. Y'know, something you do out of genuine selfless concern for others. Ashen feelings, they're obviously — they're a social necessity due to the instability of troll relationships and the violence inherent in them. But more than that, and listen closely — oh wait, first off I should probably explain what they are, just in case you don't remember. It's — auspisticism is mediating between two people. It's in— it's improving their — their life, stabilizing a pitch relationship, but it's also mentioned a few times outside the context of pitch relationships in Homestuck proper.

Nico: Yes.

Kate: It's anything to make two people work better together and help keep their social glue together, done out of love for those two people.

Nico: Yes. And again this is another one that I see referred to as a form of platonic relationship a lot, which I disagree with.

Kate: Mhmm.

Nico: Because it is — it's definitely romantic in nature, and I think a lot of people push it to the side, sort of because of this concept of monogamy being the most socially sep— acceptable form of romantic relationship in our current society.

Kate: Mhmm. So actually what you're talking about — this actually does come up in a conversation between Kanaya and drunk Rose, so I'm gonna actually read an excerpt of this, and I'm not gonna do a drunk Rose voice, and all of you can thank me for that. Rose says: 'The problem is, it's so alien to me. The idea of black romance,' or 'blapck romance' [laughs] 'I try to understand, sometimes, like, more than intellectually. I try to put myself in the shoes of feeling that and it still doesn't make sense to me. I don't wanna project my human values onto an alien relationship I disapprove of' and this is about her disapproval of Gamzee and Terezi —

Nico: Right.

Kate: Kanaya says: 'I Understand, But What Youre Describing Is...The Feelings Youre Having Are Actually Perfectly Normal Within The Framework Of Our Quadrant Based Romantic Tradition. I Dont Know If They Can Be Felt Naturally By Humans But The Way Youre Viewing Their Relationship Would Be Quite A Standard Response On Alternia. Its Sanctioned Within The Ashen Quadrant. Which Addresses Conciliatory Romantic Feelings Not Directed At A Single Person But At Two People Who Are Presently In Such A Contentious Relationship. It Is Generally Not Regarded — ' and by the way, hold on, pause for that, because it's direct: it's romantic feeling directed at two people, and Kanaya explicitly says that!

Nico: Yeah, so don't be a fucking coward.

Kate: Uh-huh. 'It Is Generally Not Regarded As One Of The More Emotionally Fulfilling Quadrants To Become Involved In. And Can Be Quite Laborious To Maintain. But It Served A Very Important Social Purpose For My People. Such As In Situations Very Similar To The One You Described. Where Two Parties Are Highly Drawn To Each Other Through Animosity. They May In Fact Be Perfect For Each Other In That Tumultuous Quadrant. But To Pursue The Relationship Would Be Chaos. Much Like The Scenario You Laid Out The Two Kismesis If Left Unchecked Would Devastate All Their Other Relationships. Those In Their Own Quadrants And Even Those In Other Peoples. So Its The Job Of An Auspistice To Make Sure That Doesnt Happen.' So, y'know, I — there's really no better explanation. Like, Kanaya is depicted as having —

Nico: Yeah.

Kate: Genuine ashen longing —

Nico: Yeah.

Kate: In — in the comic multiple times. Like, a bunch, she's a — she's — she's an auspistice slut.

Nico: [laughs]

Kate: Like — and that's just how it — that really do be like that.

Nico: That's how it be!

Kate: It really do be like that sometimes!

Nico: But yeah that's — that's a really good way of like, setting it out. I hadn't gotten that far in the comic so I've never read that conversation before.

Kate: [sniff of displeasure] [disapproving sounds] [laughs]

Nico: But it's definitely good. I definitely agree with everything in there.

Kate: Mhmm. So yeah, that's our overview of like, the four quadrants and like, what they look like — y'know, in practice. So let's get to some listener questions, unless you have anything you wanted to add about any of the four before we got there.

Nico: I'm — I'm good with listener questions.

Kate: Alright, listener questions! Donut asks on Discord: 'completely in terms of canon healthiness and function, what do you think is the best matespritship, best moirallegiance, best kismesissitude and best auspisticism in Homestuck?' So let's do this lightning-round style. Nico, I'm gonna ask you: what's your favorite matespritship?

Nico: Did we even get like, a canonical, like, matespritship in like, Homestuck?

Kate: Yeah!

Nico: Did we? I don't — I don't fucking remember Kate.

Kate: [groans]

Nico: I like my fanon ships! Fuck canon!

Kate: Okay. [laughs]

Nico: Hold on, here let me think. Matespritships — in canon.

Kate: I mean, they're still referred — like, Rose and Kanaya and like, Dave and Karkat are still like ref— we talk about them blurring quadrant lines but they're —

Nico: Right.

Kate: Still referred to as matespritships.

Nico: Oh, then probably Kanaya and Rose.

Kate: Uh-huh.

Nico: Rosemary for the win.

Kate: Yeah. Rosemary for the win indeed. I agree with that. Best moirallegiance?

Nico: Were we given any — I — I feel —

Kate: Vris-re-zi!

Nico: Oh, Vrisre—

Kate: VRIS-RE-ZI!

Nico: Yeah, Vrisrezi sure, I wasn't sure if that was considered canon though because I thought it had —

Kate: [begins to shout] Literally — you didn't finish the fucking comic!!

Nico: [also shouting] I didn't finish the fucking comic!!! [laughs]

Kate: Goodnight everybody! [laughs]

Nico: But yeah, then Vrisrezi.

Kate: Okay. [sighs, thumps head on desk] [clearly trying not to laugh again] The best kismesissitude? There was no — we already talked about how there was no good ones —

Nico: Yeah, there was no —

Kate: The best kismesissitude in Homestuck is not in Homestuck, it's in Friendsim and it's —

Nico: Yeah.

Kate: It's Galora. [Tagora/Galekh]

Nico: It is.

Kate: And — best auspisticism — again, there was actually no auspisticism that worked —

Nico: Yeah —

Kate: In Homestuck.

Nico: Which is — which is sad.

Kate: Uh-huh.

Nico: That's why I'm sadstuck.

Kate: Except, and this is — and I've talked about it before, my strongest held headcanon is that Vriska auspisticized for Kanaya and Rose —

Nico: Yeah —

Kate: On the meteor.

Nico: I big agree on that.

Kate: Alright, cool, I'm glad [laughs] And our next question, optimisticDuelist asks on Discord: 'between Karkat and Hiveswap examples like Konyyl and Azdaja's relationship, it seems like pan-quadrant or even just quadrant-blurring tendencies are positioned as an analog to queerness by troll standards — '

Nico: Absolutely, I definitely think that's it's an algatory [sic: allegory] for queer romance.

Kate: Mhmm.

Nico: 'Cause they are in a, I guess —

Kate: Outside of the bounds of societal imposition.

Nico: Yes.

Kate: And — and actually optimisticDuelist linked a — a Karkat log where he's talking to himself —

Nico: Mhmm.

Kate: And so I'm gonna go ahead and read that because I feel like it's a — it's a good launching-off point for this discussion.

Nico: Right.

Kate: 'IT'S ALL TOO CLEAR TO ME NOW. IT'S A CLASSIC CASE OF QUADRANT VACILLATION AND YOU DON'T EVEN KNOW IT. NO WONDER SHE WAS FRUSTRATED AND GOT FED UP WITH YOU.'

'THIS IS OUTRAGEOUS'

'IS IT? TELL ME, HOW MANY TIMES HAVE YOU TREATED HER IN A WAY THAT IT COULD BE OBJECTIVELY CONSTRUED AS A FORM OF BLACK SOLICITATION?'

'THAT'S JUST. NO. THAT'S HOW WE'VE ALWAYS ROLLED TOGETHER. IT'S LIKE SPIRITED PLATONIC CONTENTION. TOTALLY NORMAL TERRITORY IN A HEALTHY MATESPRITSHIP.'

'YEAH, A HEALTHY ONE, NOT ONE INVOLVING A DEMENTED LOUDMOUTH WHO CAN'T KEEP HIS SHIT UNDER CONTROL. LET ME ASK YOU: HOW MUCH OF THAT ANIMOSITY IS INNOCENT PLATONIC RAGE? COULD IT BE THAT SUBCONSCIOUSLY YOU WANT TO PUSH THINGS WITH HER ONTO CALIGINOUS TURF? MAYBE SEE HOW THINGS WORK OUT THERE? SEE IF YOU CAN GAVE YOUR GRUB AND CULL IT TOO? THAT WAY YOU HAVE HER ALL TO YOURSELF.'

'FUCK YOU.'

'YOU WANT HER IN EVERY QUADRANT LIKE A DESPERATE FOOL. DO YOU REALIZE WHAT YOU'VE BECOME? YOU'RE THE SAD JOKE CHARACTER IN THE ROMCOM, YOU KNOW THE GUY I'M TALKING ABOUT, WHO'S GREEDY AND INDISCRIMINATE ABOUT FILLING EVERY QUADRANT, TOTALLY OBLIVIOUS TO IT AND IN THE END HAS FUCK ALL TO SHOW FOR IT.' [laughs]

Nico: Yeah, so it's — it's definitely an allegory for queer relationships and I think that what makes DaveKat so interesting as a ship is because they're two people going outside of the bounds of what is considered normal in their society. Dave by dating another person of the same gender, and Karkat by dating outside of the quadrant system.

Kate: Mhmm. Yeah, and it — y'know, they're both analogs, and like, y'know, being a joke character in media — that's something that a lot of us queer people —

Nico: Yeah.

Kate: We know how that feels and I think that that comparison was drawn deliberately. And you see in the Friendsims how Azdaja and Konyyl are really, really, *really* nervous about talking about their quadrant vacillation in front of other people.

Nico: Yes.

Kate: They like, are super guarded about it. And so yeah, I do think it is a m— I do think it is a metaphor for that. And I think it is an important one and it's part of what makes DaveKate work —

Nico: Yeah.

Kate: As — as y'know, as a — as a commentary on imposed concepts of gender and sexuality. Let's see. Sis asked on Twitter — Sis asked 12 questions and I picked one and I'm sorry about that. They were really good questions! 'In post-canon, how do you think the trolls will deal with their quadrant system? Will they keep it, but looser? Is it innate to many, so the system will stay but with less threat/pain? Do they abandon one or all of them?' So this is about Earth C, right —

Nico: Yes.

Kate: This is about the new troll race. What do you think? 'Cause this is total headcanon territory.

Nico: So — I — I definitely think that it's something that's going to be kept, just because we see it exist on Beforus, it exists on Alternia —

Kate: Mhmm.

Nico: Despite their differences in culture, so it's clearly something that is inherent in tor— in trolls. So it's probably going to be kept, but with the amount of, you know, queer people and people blurring quadrants on Earth C it's definitely going to be something that's looser and more open towards vacillation, and isn't really a requirement because —

Kate: Of course.

Nico: Y'know, there's no point in that!

Kate: Right, there's no Empire official drones, y'know, there's no —

Nico: Exactly.

Kate: Right. And you also have to remember that it's heavily implied in the work that the new troll society is being built and structured by Kanaya and Karkat. And —

Nico: Uh-huh.

Kate: Y'know, quadrants and troll romance are both very important to both of them, and they both have a lot of feelings about how it could be better and how — and how it could be applied to society. So like, they're both — so y'know what sort of — just think about what we've talked about with Kanaya and Karkat, and think about what sort of romantic system would they recommend to their newly created swarms of — of y'know — of followers?

Nico: Mhmm.

Kate: And that's probably what it's like on Earth C, and we'll see if we get any further confirmation of that in the future. Audrey asks on Twitter: 'would you say that the usual comparison between moirails and queerplatonic partners is accurate? I've seen people either supporting it or being annoyed with it.'

Nico: Okay so I have a lot of opinions on this, but I want to like, very much state that I am not attempting to police anybody's relationship with these views on trolls.

Kate: Mhmm.

Nico: Because this is about troll romance, not irl people romance. I think you can call your queerplatonic partner whatever you would like to call them as long as you have their consent to refer to them as such. If you wanna call them your moirail then they're your moirail, congratulations! But it's definitely not something that's platonic in the work of the comic.

Kate: Mhmm. Yeah, y'know, I don't — I really don't care what you call — what you and your partner call yourselves. [laughs] I really — that's — I do— I — I do not give a single jack shit about what you and your partner call themselves, and my advice for — for everyone out there would be not to give a single jack shit what other people and their partners call themselves! [laughs]

Nico: Yeah. Absolutely.

Kate: Y'know, if it's a — if it's a — if it's a system that y'know — again, it's — as we talked about it, it's just recontextualizing the different definitions of love that have gone back in philosophy for literally —

Nico: For ages, like t—

Kate: Thousands of years.

Nico: Like, spoiler alert, but troll romance is human romance!

Kate: Yeah, it's just like —

Nico: Just with different terms and on a different society.

Kate: Yeah. And in like an inherently polyamorous structure.

Nico: Yes.

Kate: Yeah, so y'know. That's — that's that. Shiraru asks on Twitter: 'what's your best guess on how leprechaun romance works?' And for that — d'you have any actual thoughts on this?

Nico: [close to the microphone] It's gay.

Kate: [laughs] It's gay! Leprechauns do appear to only have one gender. I'm not gonna actually — here's the thing: wha— just you wait for Perfectly Generic Podcast like, Episode 234 or whatever, 'The Leprechaun Romance Episode', cause we're gonna bust that shit down. That is — it is going to be the most mind-blowing episode of the podcast at 3-and-a-half hours, we're gonna go into every possible leprechaun relationship and every permutation of them. We're gonna absolutely just destroy it. It will —

Nico: And I'm going to be high.

Kate: It is the [laughs] It's the only way you'll be able to manage it! It's the song — the leprechaun romance episode is the song that will end civilization [laughs]

Nico: [laughs]

[outro music begins]

Kate: So yeah, d'you have anything else you wanna — you wanna get to?

Nico: [close to the microphone] Be gay.

Kate: You're gonna — you just clipped the mic *so* hard.

Nico: [laughs]

Kate: I know you did! That — that absolutely sounded terrible. [laughs]

Nico: Keep it in! I hope it just sounds like I'm like, this weird like, eldritch demon com—

Kate: It's not gonna sound like that — it's not gonna sound like that it's just gonna sound bad. [laughs]

Nico: As it should — as anything from my mouth does.

Kate: Okay, that's not true. [laughs]

Nico: [laughs]

Kate: That's our show!? This has been the Perfectly Generic Podcast, you can see us online as perfectlygenericpodcast.com, you can follow the show on Twitter: twitter.com/pgenpod. You can check out our Tumblr run by friend of the show and cabal member Hexy at pgenpod.tumlbr.com. And you can see myself — you can find myself on Twitter: twitter.com/gambligant8, gamblignant8.tumblr,com — you can also follow my main and my exploits in Overwatch League at twitter.com/KateMitchellOW. Where can people find you?

Nico: So you can predominantly find me on Twitter, @confirmedtrash, or alternatively you can find me on Tumblr at dirk_of_heart.tumblr.com.

Kate: Mhmm. And this week's music was provided by Goomy, friend of the show, member of the Perfectly Generic music team. The opening track was 'doctor wave' and the ending track was 'of void'. And you can follow Goomy on Twitter, twitter.com/itsgoomy_. And so yeah — be gay, do crimes, respect your — respect your — respect your loved ones. Thanks for listening to the show. Holy shit that's the worst ending ever!

Nico: It was good!

Kate: Uh-huh. [laughs] It was just respect your loved ones, Perfectly Generic Podcast style.

Nico: This is what happens when you record with a Doom player.

Kate: Yeah, it did get a little — it was a little fucky. Welcome to the post-show, where [laughs]

Nico: [laughs]

Kate: You know what, I actually wanted to get into this a little bit 'cause it has —

Nico: Yeah.

Kate: Been a really bad news week all around the world.

Nico: Yeah.

Kate: And so if you don't wanna hear about this, the show's over, you can shut — if you're gonna just like, 'talk about Homestuck in your Homestuck podcast' — yeah, I get it, I understand. Just turn the — turn off the episode now. But it has been a really difficult week of news for so many different reasons —

Nico: Yeah.

Kate: For so many different people around the world. And I'm really pleased to have this community of listeners from around the world and — and people to interact with on Homestuck Twitter and Tumblr — who are personally affected by a lot of these things. And so I just wanted to say, like — to my Brazilian listeners, to my American listeners, to Jewish listeners worldwide. Shit sucks, and you shouldn't have to hear affirmation that like, we're in this together and we're gonna get through it from a fucking Homestuck podcast, but since the governments of the world aren't standing up properly, like — we're fuckin' *with* you. And y'know, if there's ever anything that — if there's ever any— like, y'know, it — Homestuck as a work of media is something that's immensely comforting for a lot of people, and if this show can help you through tough times like these in any way, that's the biggest goal that I could ever have. Y'know, I — stay safe, keep fighting, and fuck The Condesce [laughs]

Nico: Amen.