Episode 33: Relevance, Truth, and Essentiality

Kate welcomes first guest Sam back to the show to discuss The Homestuck Epilogues. Topics include Rose and Roxy’s relationships to their aspects, content warnings, metanarrative callbacks, Vriska (LET ME IN!), being a depressed 20-something, and hopes for the future.

We discuss optimisticDuelist’s essays “The Meat/Candy Binary” and “Rose Lalonde at the Heart of the World”.

Listen to this episode at https://perfectlygenericpodcast.com/updates/episodes/33

Transcript
Kate: The Perfectly Generic Podcast contains Epilogue spoilers (you don't know how long I've been waiting to say that), occasional adult language, and Vriska. This show wouldn't be possible without the support of our Crockertier patrons: [names]. Thank you so much.

[intro]

Kate: I've just started the recording because I feel like there's really no preamble needed.

Sam: Yeah there's no way to prepare for this [laughs]

Kate: [laughs] So, the Homestuck Epilogues, plural.

Sam: Epilogues plural, I can't believe that I came into this shit just to get another cliffhanger after *all* my wai— argh god *damn* it! [laughs]

Kate: [laughs] So we got the first three chap— we got the prologue to the Epilogues today on 4/13.

Sam: How very Hussie-like.

Kate: Yeah! [laughs] And this one — and this prologue was written by Andrew Hussie, V, and cepheid_variable, who is the novelist Jennifer Giesbrecht, whose first novel "The Monster of Elendhaven" is available at macmillan books. Andrew wrote all the dialog, and then the prose was the three of them. So this is the first time that proper like, mainline Homestuck content has been written by other people.

Sam: Mhmm.

Kate: Which is, I think, fair— which is, y'know, fairly interesting [laughs].

Sam: Yeah I'm certainly curious as to how it'll carry tonally as it continues to update. I don't want to say a whole bunch right now when we have yet to get into meat — into the meat of this update, but it's definitely tonally, atmospherically like, in stark contrast to the main comic already, and we've only got, I guess, three-and-a-half chapters so far.

Kate: Yeah. Y'know it's a lot more — it's grown up, is what it is, y'know?

Sam: It is, they're all in their 20s and sad now.

Kate: Yeah, which is, y'know, as they say in the business, a big mood.

Sam: Yeah.

Kate: [laughs]

Sam: And wouldn't you know it, it's a little bit more difficult to maintain relationships once you're a little older.

Kate: Yeah. And it just — and y'know it feels so real, that way of like, oh the — like, we've drifted apart, like, y'know, this has happened to us and it sucks.

Sam: I'm glad that Homestuck is still embracing that honesty about like, the lived experience though, like when I started it was a very honest look at four kids and how realistically they would have acted as like, young teenagers in the late 2000s-ish, when everything is going to shit. And now it is a very very honest depiction of a bunch of people in the early-ish 20s who just feel bad all the time [laughs]

Kate: Yeah. And how 'bout that Rose, huh?

Sam: Oh jeez. I'm gonna be completely honest with you, once I read through this whole thing I spend maybe 5 minutes feeling a little bit sad for like, John I guess 'cause he seemed kinda lonely, and I spent the rest of my time thinking about all the Light players, especially Rose.

Kate: Yeah.

Sam: Hoooh, I'm worried! Hashtag pray for Rose, I'm scared! Ugh! [continued anguished noises]

Kate: Get your prayers out for Rose, she's not —

Sam: Give her your energy, holy shit, she's not doing well.

Kate: No, she's not doin' so hot.

Sam: [more anguished sounds]

Kate: But she's still witty as hell! Like, don't be a bitch John, I'm unwell. [laughs] Is —

Sam: To the bitter end, the sardonic Rose we've always known and loved.

Kate: Seeing new — like, reading this and like seeing new Rose dialog was just like. Oh! I felt like I was alive, it's like such a breath of fresh air. Just like, I — oh! It's Andrew Hussie writing Rose dialog, like we're living!! [laughs]

Sam: I was so happy until I realized what was becoming of her, and then I felt really bad again. I was like, oh no. No, John, you have to hurry up, we have to find some way to hashtag Save Rose I'm so scared and worried for her! [laughs]

Kate: Yeah, and so y'know we only ended up seeing just the four characters in this prologue, which was Rose, John, and then Roxy and Calliope.

Sam: Oh I was happy to see those two back again. It was interesting to see John's perspective on those two and their relationship and the fact that he can't really make heads or tails of it quite yet, not that he had a whole lot of time to dwell on it.

Kate: Yeah, I mean John's a dumbass but like, he just like clearly —

Sam: [laughs]

Kate: Hasn't done a lot of thinking about the complexities of human rela— like, y'know, of just like the complexities of relationships, right? Like stuff that — like, he still — he lives in this literal like, childish — like, amphibian simulacrum of the like, standard heteronormative suburban life, right? Like he is literally — he's isolated himself from like, the queer reality of Earth C and he's still just like, living out the like, fantasy of his old life. Like he's home-stuck, but the home is society.

Sam: Imagine like, leaving society to go save fucking everything, going through every single thing that John did, just to go right back to society but worse all over again. Why would you do that John?

Kate: I will say that like — right, and it's like such a real like — it's just a depressed young person narrative of like — 'cause I spent lot of my life, like especially in my early 20s, I spent a lot of my early 20s just like, fuckin', laid up with how depressed I was. Like not goin' out.

Sam: Like the early 20s are just such an isolating time, and I promise I'm not just saying that because I'm a lonely person in my early 20s, but because John is too!

Kate: Yeah.

Sam: Poor dude!

Kate: Yeah, and also y'know with Roxy talking about how like, her and Rose weren't as close as they used to be.

Sam: Mhmm. Yeah, it sounds like — from what context we glean it seems like at least Rose is spending most of her time with Kanaya, what they're up to who knows yet, it's not like we got to actually see Kanaya in person.

Kate: Yeah it's true.

Sam: Yeah.

Kate: So based on — so if you take this character list at the top as gospel, the characters that are going to appear are: John, Rose, Dave, Jade, Jane, Roxy, Jake, Dirk; that's all 8 humans, and an additional ninth human, Barack Obama —

Sam: Sweet.

Kate: [laughs] And then of the trolls: Aradia, Tavros, Sollux, Karkat, Kanaya, Terezi, Vriska, Gamzee, Eridan and Feferi; so that's every main troll but Eridan [sic] and Nepeta [laughs]

Sam: No Equius.

Kate: I'm sorry, yeah — no sorry, but *Equius* and Nepeta, Eridan *is* in this list.

Sam: Oh *no*, horse-likers, whatever will you do? [laughs]

Kate: And of course this pleases me, 'cause since we've last spoken, Sam, I've become a fully ascended Eridan stan.

Sam: I — [struggles for words for a bit]. You have rights, it's okay.

Kate: [laughs]

Sam: You have rights. I won't list what those rights are or to what extent they reach, but —

Kate: I have the right to remain silent, is what I have.

Sam: Exactly [laughs]

Kate: And y'know —

Sam: It's like, I have no comment on Eridan, it's okay. Be the Eridan liker you were always meant to be. It's chill.

Kate: Yeah.

Sam: I'm chill with it. [laughs]

Kate: There were a lot of people upset at the tag list at the start. Which like —

Sam: Oh, the content warnings?

Kate: Yeah.

Sam: I see.

Kate: And —

Sam: How did you fee— well, I mean, you've probably had a lot more time to think about this than I have, but how did you feel about it Kate?

Kate: I mean, here's the thing, is I [sighs] I think first off, it's something that makes a lot more sense if you are engrossed in, like, AO3 [archive of our own] culture, because this like, weird tag list of like, flippant shit and serious shit like, all in one big messy bunch is like how over-tagged fics work. So it like —

Sam: [laughs]

Kate: It felt like — like that landed for me as just like a, oh yeah I've been — like, I've seen fics like this, like all the time, right? Like, I don't think it is a rape joke. Like I don't think that is what is happening here. Like, I do not think — like, there are — like what this is, is it's an outline of what's going to be talked about. Which is — which includes some really serious stuff, just like Homestuck had some really serious stuff in it. Like Homestuck had discussions of substance abuse, Homestuck had discussions of child abuse, Homestuck had domestic violence. Like, Homestuck is a like — is a work that has never shied away from approaching the difficult themes. And especially in — like, and I — did you — like, if you've read the prologue, like you saw the like, really like thoughtful, almost somber tone to it. Like, do you really think that that's like — that this style is not gonna be able to convey serious issues well? Like, it already has! That's my response to people who are worried about the tag list I think.

Sam: I — after I read the first few chapters as presented and, like you mentioned, I did immediately catch on to the very somber, serious tone relative to the original comic, I do believe that all of these like really, y'know, rough topics will be treated with good faith and dignity, like I read V's tweets on the topics and I believe them 100 percent when they say that this is something they take very seriously and they aren't trying to — when I say "they" I mean everybody involved with the updates — aren't trying to make a joke of it. But at the same time I do understand why, when you see, y'know, a huge list of y'know, graphic depictions of violence, major character death, also it's like really really hardcore things mixed in with — lemme take a squint and read here — diapers, clown, I got laugh out of that one — I understand why somebody might be nervous before like, delving into it, before getting a change to really see that, oh shit, this is actually a really serious work and they probably will take it seriously. So a little clarity — and V's 100 percent right, you cannot account for every single nuance, you cannot put like, a description for every single content warning to explain to what extent it's going to be talked about or how, but a little bit more clarity I think might have made people less nervous before proceeding with the full update work.

Kate: Yeah. I would say of all of these —

Sam: But at the end of the day —

Kate: Of all of these tags, the only one that applies to this prologue was a discussion of substance abuse. And other — like, and for future content releases, like — here's the thing. I listened and I heard about that, like for future content releases I personally will be posting — I don't know where exactly I'm gonna do it yet, maybe it'll be on the PGenPod site or something — but like I will post a more detailed look at the content list, like y'know, just more detail of like, here's what pages specifically you should skip if you have certain triggers, right? Like I am willing to go into that and like write about it at some point for future content releases.

Sam: Yeah. Maybe just — yeah, like you say, like the skip X segment or X page would be the best way to like, balance it into the future. Because again I do trust fully that everybody working with this and involved with this right now is taking this very seriously and I'm sure that the right steps will be taken to make sure nobody's hurt.

Kate: Mhmm.

Sam: Speaking of what you said just now, how — that actually stood out to me quite a bit when Rose did bring up her former substance abuse problems and it turns out that John just not — I dunno, it kinda slipped his mind or something like that?

Kate: Yeah.

Sam: Yeah, like I was kinda surprised that they revisited that topic.

Kate: Yeah, and I mean — like Rose is like, very much — was very much like out in front about it. And it's like, I don't know! I don't know what's up there! Is she being defensive? Is she — like, or is she being honest about it? I don't know! That's a damn good question. There's a lot of — I think there's a lot of densely-packed mystery in just these three chapters that we've seen so far.

Sam: Densely-packed is definitely the right way to describe all of this. I've re-read it a few times and each time I feel like I missed a lot the previous time.

Kate: Yeah.

Sam: Probably because it is full text this time around, there's just a lot. There's just a *lot*!

Kate: Yeah, Homestuck's a book now! [laughs]

Sam: Oh jeez! [laughs] I have to prepare myself to get big-brained, I have to use every single brain wrinkle to synthesize this.

Kate: Yeah.

Sam: I don't know if I'm ready! [laughs]

Kate: So Taz [optimisticDuelist] pointed out that the — so the first — like, Homestuck opened with John standing in his room alone and then being contacted by Rose about something of cosmic importance he needed to do. And in the first one John reminded Rose that it was his birthday, and in the second one Rose remind's John that it's his birthday. [In fact it was Pip who pointed this out.]

Sam: [laughs]

Kate: But it's just so funny and interesting like, how this is an echo of what came before, like it quite literally is like a point-by-point echo of the opening of Homestuck. And then it — y'know it very — like, when it went back to saying "a young man stands alone in his bedroom, it just so happens that today, the thirteenth of April, is this young man's birthday. Though it was 23 years ago he was given life, and 10 years ago when he was given a name, it feels like it's only today that he'll begin to understand what all that means. That young man is you, John Egbert. What will you do?" And I thought that was just — like that really hit me! 'Cause like, I can't — it's been 10 years!! [laughs]

Sam: It has been 10 years, though I'm sure that you've felt the impact of these 10 years quite a bit more harshly than myself because you've been in this fandom so much longer than me. But yeah, even I felt like, wow, this is kinda powerful!

Kate: Yeah! Yeah, I mean —

Sam: Yeah, like the —

Kate: Ugh, god. I can't believe it! Homestuck's back!

Sam: Welcome back. [slow clap]

Kate: [laughs]

Sam: And now I have to feel anxious about Rose's future all over again.

Kate: Yeah.

Sam: [deadpan] Thank you everybody involved. So, what do you — like, what do you make of whatever illness it seems to be that Rose is going through? Like whatever she's enduring right now it's obviously impacting her a lot. She knows whatever is going to befall her is coming very quickly, and quickly enough that she has to be very urgent and get all of this information across to John like, right away, like ASAP. What do you think is happening to her?

Kate: Well, she seems to talk about it as something to do with her aspect, and you said you were thinking about Light players earlier, so do you want to go into that a little bit?

Sam: Quite a bit — I wondered a lot, especially when she went into her discussion about canon timelines, what even *is* canon, what is non-canon, et cetera, and how — if I understood it correctly, please forgive me if I didn't because this is, again, a lot — but she has this ability now and has been using this ability to see so many different like, strings of canon, what can be, what is, in so many different ways, it's entirely possible that maybe she just looked too much. I don't know how that would impact her in a strictly physical sense, I doubt it would result in like, physical death, but maybe there is some sort of consequence to somebody seeing too much and being privy to too much knowledge of all of these realities that are, if I am understanding what she said, all valid and technically canon all at once.

Kate: Oh yeah, I wanted to get into that too! Her tripartite definition of "canon", which is — y'know, to be canon something has to be true, relevant and essential, right? And I think it's absolutely fascinating to think about the way that — so for example, you look at fan work like fanfiction — it may be relevant and it may be essential, but it may not be true, right? Like AU fanfic, for example, may be relevant, it may be essential, but it is not true. And so there's a combination of truth, relevance and essentiality that comes from having to close this loop of Lord English, because the story of Homestuck proper is not over. That's what canon is, right, the loose ends of canon have not been tied up because the events that led to Lord English's eventual defeat have not actually, from our main characters' perspective, occurred yet. And so the — y'know the destruction of the green sun by alternate Calliope in Act 7, right — its implications are now being discussed by the cast. But like, that only would've been possible if there was — like, Lord English was there at that location facing Vriska and the ghost army, which like — and Vriska has the house juju which Caliborn's masterpiece implies, like, the kids are stuck in. They're home stuck!

Sam: [laughs]

Kate: And so John's getting a team together. [laughs]

Sam: Yep, he can't do it alone, Rose made it very clear and said, you idiot, there's no way! [laughs] What do you think you're doing?! I like the not so subtle like, acknowledgement that yeah, not only are we going to see Vriska again but she's a very major key in how this is going to all play out, and surprise surprise, guess who's another Light sign: Vriska.

Kate: Yeah.

Sam: But it makes me wonder, if Rose by some means or another is being severely impacted, either by — again there's a lot of room for speculation, what's going on in certain canon timelines, or her own observation involvement with canon, et cetera et cetera — however it is that she's being hurt by her own aspect, I wonder if something similar may be happening to whatever Vriska it is we're going to be following, or if she's being impacted differently, or isn't even being impacted at all. We can't really say, we haven't seen her yet.

Kate: Also I can — and I have an interesting theory on this I think, which is that like, John's social isolation and detachment from the goings-on of the world is just as much a like, an overcharging of Breath as like, the debilitating headaches and paralysis of choice is an overcharge of Light.

Sam: Hmm. You know what, that makes a whole lot of sense, you're right, it's kinda like overdoing it too much on your own aspect. If Rose is looking too much into everything to the point where looking at differing but all equally valid realities to the point where it's having a negative detrimental effect on her then it's entirely possible that you're absolutely right, John maybe has embraced Breath a little bit too much, where as the star of the story for so long he's withdrawn further and further into his own self, his own role, his own whimsy even, to where he just isn't talking to anybody anymore. I think you're absolutely right in that regard. In which case I wonder how that's impacting everybody else, how is Dave, for example, being impacted by Time, how is Jade being impacted by Space? I'm sure we're going to be seeing those two again very soon.

Kate: Yeah, it's like to the degree of like, these are not just people any more, they are *gods*, right? They are a pantheon and —

Sam: [laughs]

Kate: And there is a level of mythic — like, of y'know — there's a level of mythic detachment that comes with being part of a pantheon, right? And I find that really fascinating. And y'know, you actually see it — again, these were just 3 pa— in just these three chapters there's so much to talk about because like, the narrative text talks about Roxy, which is, y'know — "You can't stop thinking about it. What goes on in Roxy's head. What she thinks about you. You and all your friends have dispositions affected by your classes and aspects. You think you know what that means in your case. But what about her? You can only speculate. Void is a place where things sink and disappear. Where they linger forever, but cease to exists. You aren't actually sure if your feelings for Roxy ever really faded, or if they just grew numb with time and distance. Is it the same for her?"

Sam: Hmm. I don't know!! It's so much [laughs]

Kate: Yeah [laughs]

Sam: It's like — I spent so much time thinking about just Rose, I didn't even think about the fact that, oh right, John used to have feelings for Roxy. Ohhhh boy.

Kate: Yeah.

Sam: I guess if everybody is going through some degree of like, overloading with their own aspect and the exact same is happening for Roxy, if John is sitting here thinking about how does Roxy feel, how does she like, engage with everybody including me, et cetera, what is Roxy thinking do you think? Do you think it's entirely possible that Roxy's thinking about if her feelings for everybody around her are as similarly valid, if the way she's engaging with everybody else is real, so to speak, or is it, too, void. Is it just — and I don't just mean like, y'know however she's talking with John or even Calliope, like I'm sure she's dwelled a lot about what appears to be a relationship with Rose that's just less involved than it used to be. I'm sure she has a lot of thoughts about the fact that she doesn't talk with, y'know, mom-sister as much as she once did.

Kate: Yeah. I love the — I mean — hold on, they actually had a conversation about this, so: Roxy: " guess she filled you in on all the ultimate self junk then. The shit where she starts knowing everything and feelin bad." [laughs] John: "Oh that's not the term she used, she just kept describing it as a condition. You haven't been feeling anything like that, right?" Roxy: " What, getting to know my ultimate self? Man I've barely got a hold of my basic-ass self."

Sam: [laughs] How quintessentially Roxy of her.

Kate: [laughs] Yeah! It's very self-aware.

Sam: If you can be anything, at least — yeah. No, absolutely, like if you can be anything at least know your weaknesses. [laughs]

Kate: Yeah. [laughs]

Sam: [deep sigh] Ohhh boy.

Kate: Oh man.

Sam: Yeah, I wish I had more to say. Like every time you bring up something new I don't think like, oh I have a thought about it, I think oh I didn't read that part hard enough! [laughs]

Kate: I know, I know right! I feel like I haven't read it hard enough. I'm so excited to like, really dig into all of this. So I guess — y'know we should talk about the cliffhanger, which is we are left with a choice. Meat or candy, John? Meat, or candy. [laughs]

Sam: Ugh. "You release your breath — "

Kate: What are your thoughts on meat and candy?

Sam: "You release your breath when you realize you've been holding it. You're being ridiculous. What's the sense of fussing over lunch? In the end, it really doesn't matter. Whatever you choose, it'll all be flushed down the toilet tomorrow." First: gross. Second: very funny.

Kate: Yeah.

Sam: Third: it makes me wonder if that's really like, John's like, impulsive decision-making here or is he instead trying to glean some sort of like wisdom from how Rose would look at it. Just a page ago Rose was talking about how like, there are nigh infinite number of canons and like, there are so many of them that are all real and all valid, so I suppose if we're following that reasoning it's entirely possible that John chooses both meat and candy, not necessarily in the line of epilogue that we're reading but in general. And both of those options may very well be valid and, if we're to believe Rose, canon. So if that's true, and John acknowledges that it's true, he understands it, then maybe he very well will just flip a coin. Or maybe he will treat it with a little bit more weight than that.

Kate: Yeah.

Sam: But maybe be relieved —

Kate: I mean, he's not Terezi!

Sam: [laughs] Yeah, that's true — but maybe at least be relieved knowing, or at least having faith in Rose's insistence, that his decision is real and valid canon either way. That's how I went with it.

Kate: Well you have to remember that the last time the story presented us with a binary choice like this was the coin flip that Terezi — y'know, about whether to kill — whether to stab Vriska in the back or not, right? And what ended up happening there was a third option was taken, right? But it took John to make that third option possible, right?

Sam: Oh, I see what you're implying. Do you think John is going to try that again right now?

Kate: [laughs] I don't know! I don't know if — he seems like he's not on his A game. [laughs] Like — right? Like it seems like John — like none of these kids are in hero shape right now.

Sam: And everybody feels like they've stagnated just a little bit, John especially. And also —

Kate: They need that little goat legged guy from Hercules.

Sam: Also if you don't mind me pausing this recording for just a brief moment, my dog is asking to come in from outside, so just one moment.

Kate: Yeah, no problem!

Sam: BRB. [gets up and walks out but can still be heard in the distance] Pippin! [a dog barks] Pippin, c'mon! [more dog noises] Don't run away to the other side — come —

Kate: [laughs]

Sam: I'm trying to record a podcast! Come on! [dog barking continues]

Kate: [quietly to themself] I'm trying to record a podcast but my dog is dummy cute.

Sam: [clattering and banging sounds] Unbelievable. The moment I go to bring my dog in from outside he immediately runs to the other side of the fence to go bark at a rabbit. Anyways — are you still there?

Kate: Yes I am still here! I was just enjoying that.

Sam: Sweet.

Kate: So we've talked about the meat/candy dichotomy on this show a great deal actually.

Sam: Oh boy.

Kate: And — 'cause there was a part of it in one of the Homestuck book commentary— Homestuck Book 3, on Jack: Ascend.

Sam: Oh shoot!

Kate: Hussie's quote on this was: "From this point on I just sorta started shovelling more and more red meat into the story's maw. This stretch is where I was starting to get a feel for this type of sensationalistic storytelling content as something I'd later code, mostly for my own internal purposes, as "meat", in the meat/candy binary of story-craft theory. I really shouldn't talk about this yet though. It's too soon." And at the time it was like, too soon? Like what does that mean?

Sam: [laughs]

Kate: Well it turns out that's what that meant! It was too soon and now we know what you were talking about!

Sam: Oh no, he just straight up throws it in front of us and we have to dwell on this until it gets updated again.

Kate: Yeah. Yeah, and optimisticDuelist wrote briefly on this, which is like, meat is 'part where people die and get shit done with a lot of spectacle', right, and candy refers to shipping, or at least like this idea of like, y'know, the like acting out of relationships. Like they're the two types of satisfying content that people want, right? Like some people want the meat of, let's have this cool battle with Lord English where everybody uses their superpowers, right? And then people want the candy of like, I wanna know who's kissin' each other, right? [laughs]

Sam: Was it optimisticDuelist who also specifically associated that desire for meat in the story with Caliborn specifically —

Kate: Yes.

Sam: And how Caliborn — yeah [laughs]

Kate: Well it's notable because the cherubs subsist entirely on a diet of meat and candy, right, like they — like both Caliborn and Calliope both only eat raw meat and pure sugar, right? And you see that in the way that like, Calliope thought Trickster mode was fun and was like, satisfying character development, where it's actually like this horrific thing that is like, y'know, having the Mario star and skipping stages of personal development.

Sam: Appropriate then that it is Calliope that is presenting that decision to John, like she's the one who chooses this huge symbology-laden decision, meat or candy, to John, who doesn't —

Kate: Yeah, and I mean she's fulfilling — sorry, go on.

Sam: I was just gonna say, to a John that doesn't look like he's really all the way there and all the way prepared to make this decision at all. Not that anyone's ever fully prepared for this, but like he's really out of sorts right now.

Kate: Yeah. But like, so — she's acting out the role of the muse here by inspiring the story to come, right? She has positioned herself in a situation where she's not responsible for the story but is inspiring our hero to action. Make the choice John.

Sam: [laughs]

Kate: And y'know — and Homestuck has always been phrased as a like, what will you do, right? It's an element of we're watching and waiting to see the choices that characters make, and how the story unfolds based on the choices that they make. 'Cause it's sort of a game metaphor, because the original conceit was that the choices that they make were the choices that we made, quote-unquote, by submitting reader submissions. And in the end it like —

Sam: And at the end of the — yeah and at the end of the day they were playing a game.

Kate: Yeah. And Homestuck is still a game. Now here's a question that was asked on our stream earlier, which I'm interested to hear your concept of. Who is the narrative voice? Like who is delivering commands? Is it still, like — [laughs] what's going on there, like what is the narrative voice, metatextually?

Sam: I see. You mean just for the epilogue?

Kate: Yeah. Well you can talk about like, the narrative voice in Homestuck because the narrative voice in Homestuck is like — is Andrew Hussie talking to you the reader? [laughs]

Sam: Hmm. I — that's a good question. My gut assumption is to say that it is, like, either a characterless voice, perhaps just the Hussie role again, the author.

Kate: Yeah.

Sam: Though it's not really just Hussie any more, like that's one thing — that's a paradigm shift I have to get used to. It's not just Hussie making this stuff any more.

Kate: Yeah, and also the author avatar is dead and gone. [laughs]

Sam: That is true. I don't know if there's an intended like, literal answer for who is presenting these choices anymore.

Kate: Yeah.

Sam: It's not like in the very very early days of Homestuck where they were actual, literal choices where people — like readers submitted answers and stuff, played a huge role in how the comic would shape itself. In fact it's the opposite, we don't get any kind of input any more and as of right now even the medium through which we get feedback to these quote "choices "unquote is a tiny bit more limited in that there's not even imagery any more, it seems to be for the moment just text. Which I don't think is a bad thing, don't get me wrong.

Kate: Yeah.

Sam: So yeah, I think in the way that this epilogue is in many ways sorta like — kind of feels like the opposite of the original comic, it's very somber instead of like joke-y, full text instead of, y'know, imagery of the comic. Maybe the narrative voice is meant to be the opposite of how the narrative voice was presented in the original comic in that it's an absence of character and an absence of genuine choice for the player/reader. That's how I feel about it for the moment. How do you feel about it?

Kate: [laughs] I — I'm fascinated by the change in tone. I'm fascinated by the richer discussion. I love being able to see a little bit more into the internal narrative of the character we're playing as, quote-unquote, right. And like, I — I'm just blown away by the quality of the prose here. And y'know, the dialog is just whip-smart, like perfect clarity like always.

Sam: It really is. Like what I really appreciate is despite the fact that there's like, multiple people like, working on this and contributing it now, it feels like every character's voice carries — it's not — like obviously because everyone is older, but it carries the way I expected it to. It — like they're still the same people but they're older —

Kate: Yeah.

Sam: And still struggling.

Kate: Yeah.

Sam: And you can really feel that, and it fits the, y'know, kinda somber as we said earlier atmosphere of the overall work, too.

Kate: Yeah.

Sam: I thought it was really really well executed.

Kate: Yeah absolutely, I mean the character voices are spot-on. V did say that —

Sam: Especially like you mentioned [laughs] sardonic Rose especially.

Kate: Ugh god, the Rose! It's so —

Sam: [laughs]

Kate: It's just so nice to see Rose dialog again. I'm hoping — I cannot wait to see other characters again, like oh my god. So what are you — like what do you wanna know moving forward?

Sam: The big question I have right now — like I have multiple big questions, but some of them, like, we're just not prepared to deal with yet because we're only three chapters in. But one thing I really want to see, like we talked about earlier, is how everybody is being affected — or at least what everyone's relationship is with their aspect now. Again, we mention we're going to see Dave and Jade eventually, Karkat was mentioned by name, I wonder if he possibly might be having the opposite problem that John is having right now. If John has gone like, super isolated and the like, maybe Karkat is, through aspect of Blood, maybe overindul— maybe a little too involved with people. Maybe he's feeling the weight of whatever involvement he has in this new society or the fact that he has — I don't know, he's in like a consistent relationship now as well, for starters, but we don't know if he's like, handling this all properly, if he's prepared for a relationship outside of like the original quadrant norms that he knew during his time on Alternia. Like we just don't know.

Kate: Yeah.

Sam: So I'm curious to see how that's impacting everybody across the board.

Kate: Yeah, I know. I wanna — man, I want — me at the gates of DaveKat: let me in!! Let me in!!

Sam: [aggressively] Let me in!!!!

Kate: [laughs]

Sam: [laughs]

Kate: I loved the — we — I loved the, at the start, the dreaming in anime where he was just dreaming Act 7.

Sam: [laughs] Ohh, that's one way to put it for sure. It actually didn't click with me until you just said that, that he was literally just reliving Act 7, but — yeah, that prologue definitely makes a lot more sense now that you dropped that on me, oh my gosh.

Kate: I've gotta say I love the fucking — [sighs] I loved the opening prose, like the descriptions of the black hole.

Sam: If you don't mind one more time, he's asking to come indoors again, oh my gosh. Just one sec.

Kate: Get it.

Sam: [sounds of Sam leaving again] [speaking endearingly to their dog in the distance] Pippin you'd better actually come indoors this time, you'd better not trick me like last time. Alright, good boy, I love you so much. I love you, you've never done anything wrong. I have to go back to recording my podcast now Pippie. Not my podcast, it does not belong to me, I've only been on a few episodes. [to Kate] I'm back. Anyways. I'm sorry [laughs]

Kate: No it's alright, you were in the first episode, it's basically your podcast.

Sam: [laughs] No!! [laughing] I'm so sorry. I have to explain these semantic differences to my pet dog, otherwise he'll know I'm a liar.

Kate: Yeah — well, Pippin did nothing wrong is also what I heard —

Sam: [laughs]

Kate: Which makes him very much like Vriska in that sense.

Sam: Pippin is the Vriska of the dog world.

Kate: [laughs]

Sam: But anyways, now that you mentioned that — you clarified to me that the very beginning of the prologue was literally just John dreaming the epi— Act 7 all over again, once again makes me think about the major tonal difference. I couldn't recognize it as Act 7 because Act 7, despite being the exact same event, was presented in a way that was so cheerful, so climactic and like, even though it wasn't the end like anyone can see all the loose ties there still, it still felt like The End in a satisfying way. Yet when that exact same scene is presented as the beginning in the Epilogue it's very scary. Like it's honestly frightening, it was depressing, those loose ends, the fact that there's this like non-finite ending to it — all of it felt very overwhelming, negative — it was a nightmare, the exact same event is depicted as something almost unrecognizable, despite the fact that just a few years ago everybody was cheering for it.

Kate: Yeah.

Sam: Much to think about [laughs]

Kate: Much to think about. I mean it's — y'know, again, like the format of Act 7, like it was a dream ballet, to get into — to use — oh — as has obviously been on my mind because of the recent fucking Polygon Unravelled live show where Brian David Gilbert performs a dream ballet of the — of all the legendary pokemon.

Sam: Oh no, I haven't c— I have to catch up now. Now I have to see what you're describing because as much as it sounds like complete and utter bullshit I believe you 100 percent that — I know that that exists and I have to watch it [laughs] oh my. I'm sorry that like, I continually just pause and like take a deep breath, but like —

Kate: No, it's fine!

Sam: This is a lot of content to look over.

Kate: It's a lot to take in.

Sam: Yeah. Well, if there's anyone to talk — like, to change the subject, if there's anyone to talk Light signs and specifically Vriska with, it's you.

Kate: Yeah.

Sam: Do you have anything specifically, because we know we're gonna see her. We're gonna see Vriska, Vriska's coming back and with her the Vriscourse. Is there anything specifically you want to see of Vriska, maybe like looking in a little bit deeper into how she's progressing, or if she has even progressed very much wherever — what ever void that she's in right now?

Kate: Yeah. Y'know I — I'm hoping personally for — [sighs] okay, so one of the things that a lot of people didn't, I think, get about Vriska was like, after Act 6, like the narrative didn't spend any time being originally characters, it was only being the Alpha kids. So you didn't get like, the internal narrative. So I feel like a lot of the like, angst and internal knowledge that like makes Vriska so sympathetic to a lot of readers in like Act — y'know, Acts 4 and 5, didn't come through to post-retcon Vriska, who like doesn't get the chance to introspect. So all I wanna do — so like, what I mostly wanna see is just the chance to introspect and y'know, just — like, just the empathetic way that the narrative treated John, right, like I would love to see that same thing applied to numerous other characters including Vriska. Like I want to see Vriska's thoughts [laughs]

Sam: With Vriska specifically, this isn't necessarily applied to other characters, but Vriska specifically I simultaneously agree — I do want more time to like, really dig deep into like her head space, like have that empathetic feel to which we can like kinda understand how she's feeling, especially like how she's feeling about everybody else when she reunites with John — but at the same time I hope we don't hear her literal narrative thoughts. I've always liked having like, a tiny bit of distance from Vriska specifically where you can hear her speak and talk about her perspectives, but you always have to ask yourself to what extent is this true, to what extent is she just bullshitting us.

Kate: Well I think — well here's the thing, is I think that Vriska — when she like — I think when Vriska does something it is almost always out of a genuine belief that it's the right thing to do, even if that is stupid or based on like, wrong information or wrong ideas. Like that's why I find writing Vriska's perspective in fanfic so fun and interesting, is just that like, I — like her perspective is one where she's like, got a massive chip on her shoulder even inside her own head.

Sam: That is true, and you're right, I do enjoy reading like fan interpretations of that, and I do want to like get the chance to hear her say it out loud so to speak. Like, just say like, here's how — let's just get it out there, here's what I'm thinking, here's why I did what I did, et cetera. I just don't want to hear like her literal thoughts. Like I don't know if I would feel — I don't know how I would feel if suddenly like, this epilogue completely changed like perspective so to speak to her character specifically. I don't know if I'd be ready for the narrative voice and like, literal thoughts to all be hers. Maybe I'm just used to always having that little bit of distance there, again.

Kate: Well like, lemme be clear that like, I think it's interesting because the narrator in this prologue was, I think, very clearly unreliable. By which I mean like, the narrator literally does not — like, you get John's lack of understanding of Roxy and Calliope's relationship.

Sam: That's true! [laughs]

Kate: You get like — also the narrative not understanding what was going on with Dave, Karkat — or sorry, no — sorry Rose says this. This is — here's another separate thing —

Sam: Oh boy!

Kate: About Jade: "it's not like she's had any particular need to unleash the full fury of the green sun, not while she's been gallivanting around with Dave and Karkat under whatever perplexing social arrangement they have settled on."

Sam: Oh boy.

Kate: [laughs]

Sam: So Rose doesn't understand what the fuck they're up to.

Kate: Yeah.

Sam: *I* don't understand either Rose, it's completely okay, you're like the smartest person on the planet, you don't fucking get it, I don't see why I would either. [laughs]

Kate: I know they were depicted together in the credits. I don't know —

Sam: But again we don't know the nature of that 100 percent.

Kate: Yeah, exactly.

Sam: I'm sure it'll become a little more clear with like future updates, but for now — eh. Who knows.

Kate: Polyamory is in the tag list. I don't know precisely what that means —

Sam: Oh no, that — yeah, it wouldn't surprise me at all, in fact I would find that to be a very interesting choice. It wasn't one that I considered but one I'm definitely open to reading. I can't wait for updates on this thing. The more we talk about this the more I realize how truly ignorant we are of the future. Oh heavens above! [laughs]

Kate: And V has tweeted that, in response to the questions of how long is it and when is the rest coming, "longer than you think, and sooner than you think." [laughs]

Sam: [drawn out 'oh', starting high-pitched and slowly falling] What if I didn't have any thoughts?! What if I can't— I'm so sorry if you can hear my dog barking [a dog barks]

Kate: No it's fine, it's adorable.

Sam: Alright, you know what, we're just gonna let this happen. Indie podcasts, woo. [laughs] [dog barks] I didn't come into this with any assumptions at all so I truly don't know what to make of it, but at the same time if I was afraid of ambiguity, loose ends and inability to predict the future, I wouldn't be reading Homestuck, so screw it! [laughs]

Kate: [laughs]

Sam: I've prepared for however long it'll take to wait. Everybody else has done their share of waiting, I can do it too. [laughs]

Kate: [laughs] Yeah, I mean — I don't know — something's been like just sort of hitting me all day, 'cause like — I mean I've been in — this is like my superbowl [laughs] this is —

Sam: [laughs]

Kate: But it's really been like — this feels — like I've been having that feeling like it was election day, 'cause I used to run political campaigns, and it's like — but also there's just been this like, just washing over me this incredible feeling of significance. Of like, just how much this work has meant to so many people and like the idea that we aren't done yet. And that there is so much more —

Sam: It's still going!

Kate: There's so many more questions to be answered, like that — y'know, that — when I came back into the Homestuck fandom and like started the show last year, like there was a real like — I don't think there was a lot of like, sense of like hope for the future of the property. Like —

Sam: Nobody knew what was going to come of it, other than the games, like I don't think anyone really thought that the comic, the main main story was just gonna keep progressing like this.

Kate: Yeah. But Homestuck's back! Homestuck isn't over, like we are now entering the next 10 years of Homestuck.

Sam: Oh boy [laughs]

Kate: Like we've done the first 10 years, and now we're doing the next 10 years. And it's a brilliant start. And I think, y'know, this is the year that defines what the long-term life of this property is, right, like is this a temporary webcomics phenomenon? Or is it something that's like, y'know, the next massive, like, comic series, right? Can this be like a cultural touchstone? I don't know. I think it can, personally.

Sam: Maybe. And again like you mentioned earlier, there is this big paradigm shift now that the nature of the authorship has completely changed too. And with changes in authorship may mean that this epilogue is reaching audiences that maybe the original comic originally didn't. There'll be more people open to reading the entirety of Homestuck, including future content releases, who maybe might now have been interested at the end of the original work.

Kate: Yeah.

Sam: Which I think is cool, I'd love to see what potential comes out of that.

Kate: Yeah [laughs]

Sam: And then you look — oh, I just took a look at Twitter, hashtag Homestuck has been trending like number 1.

Kate: I know! It's been number 1 all day! And it's like but that's —

Sam: That's *so wild*!

Kate: It's so awesome man! It's been so awesome and there's been so many people coming out of the woodwork that I haven't seen talking about Homestuck in forever.

Sam: Yeah. Everybody's just collectively remembering their like, trollsona phase from maybe five years ago, maybe yesterday, who knows. There's so much fanart in the feed too, it's all so wonderful. I'm gonna retweet this fanart all day long [laughs]

Kate: Somebody drew fanart of *me* today, which I really appreciated!

Sam: Really?!

Kate: Yeah, fucking —

Sam: Oh I just scrolled down to it, is this the one that's your header now?

Kate: Yeah, mortifBloom drew Kate Scratch, the real excellent host.

Sam: Oh boy. Well your facial features are definitely a lot more defined that Doc Scratch's are —

Kate: Yeah!

Sam: So points for that. Oh wait — what does this caption say? Vriska di— of course.

Kate: [laughs]

Both together: Vriska did nothing wrong.

Sam: [laughs] If you had the omnipotence and greater power of Doc Scratch then I'm sure that that would be the mantra that you spread to the people. [sighs] I get a lot — it really is — like the more I scroll down and look at all like, the discussion, the fan content, the fanart, everything — the more it hits me exactly like you said, this property, this story and everything affiliated with it means so much to so many people and it's so heartening to know that it's not over. Like it's the opposite, y'know, the next phase of it has begun. That's such a wonderful thing. I'm just so happy it's still thriving.

Kate: I'm so happy too! I — I'm — it's — [laughs] I just — I honestly never saw a feeling like this coming, like when you and I sat down last year to talk about like, Hiveswap in episode 1, and talk about your first experiences with Homestuck.

Sam: Yeah, no, I didn't expect it either. I really thought that I had just read through the comic to the end, and then after Friendsim was over then all I really had to look forward to was whatever came next in the Hiveswap continuity. I didn't think we were going to get mainline updates, I didn't think I was going to have to be patient for mainline updates but now I do. I just have to learn from the masters, I have to learn from you [laughs] Oh wow. What a change. So I have a question for you, actually, since I know that you were an enthusiast of many ships including VrisRezi —

Kate: Yeah.

Sam: VrisKanRoseRezi and many others —

Kate: Vriska with every girl, basically.

Sam: Yeah, pretty much. But I specifically wanted to talk about Vriska and Terezi. Do you have — I'm not gonna say what do you expect, because I don't think anyone can like, expect anything right now, but is there anything you'd want to see from those two specifically, either interactions, to what extent they might acknowledge or reach out to each other, do you think — what do you think is gonna —

Kate: [sighs]

Sam: [laughs]

Kate: I — all I know, like whatever happens, I just know it's — like, I'm gonna be on the floor for it, you know what I — like —

Sam: Yeahhhh.

Kate: Like I just have so many deep feelings about —

Sam: It's gonna floor us all.

Kate: I just have so many deep feelings about Vriska and Terezi, that like, whatever — here's the thing, is actually what I don't want is for it to be easy, and I don't want for it to be immediately satisfying, right? Like —

Sam: You're absolutely right, nothing involved with either of those characters should be simple, straightforward or like, easy to digest. It has to be difficult.

Kate: Yeah.

Sam: There has to be some bittersweet element to it.

Kate: Yeah.

Sam: It has to make you sit down and really think, otherwise it just wouldn't be Vriska and Terezi.

Kate: Oh god I love Vriska and Terezi so much.

Sam: [sighs]

Kate: Also I really — I wanna see like, Kanaya — like how Kanaya's doing with this development in Rose's life. And — augh.

Sam: Part of me wonders is Kanaya as anxious about this as the rest of, well, pretty much anybody who's reading who's a Rose liker, like is she really afraid for, y'know, Rose's life, or whatever might ultimately befall her, or is she y'know, handling it with the same poise and kind of like maturity that we kind of associate with Kanaya or at least late-game Kanaya. I'm not sure.

Kate: Ugh, I don't know man. Ah!!! Alright —

Sam: [sigh]

Kate: So let's see here. Fucking — I think that's our show. Like, there's gonna — there's so much more to talk about, but like y'know.

Sam: There's so much but you can't cover it all with one person on one episode. I think just these 3 chapters have given us a lot to talk about and like, different people are going to bring different things to the table. I'm just so happy this Epilogue content is here, and I'm so happy that it's gonna like, keep coming [laughs]

Kate: Yeah. Next week Xtine and Chelsea are gonna be joining the show on the Perfectly Generic Podcast. And Nell will be joining the show on [I]ntermission. I might — I think I'm gonna put the [I]ntermission on the main stream next week, just because it's fucking Epilogue — like we gotta — like I wanna get as much talking to this in front of everyone as possible.

Sam: It's a big deal!

Kate: Yeah.

Sam: Everyone's gotta hear it! [laughs]

Kate: Yeah. And so both Perfectly Generic Podcast and [I]ntermission are made possible by all of our incredible patrons. Our Skylark-tier patrons, [names]. Thank you so, so much for your support. And like I said at the top of the show, thank you unbelievably much to our Crockertier supporters: [names]. It's unbelievably incredible the level of generosity you guys are showing. You can stay tuned after the ending music for a clip of [I]ntermission — yesterday's [I]ntermission, which is a feed — a bonus podcast available to all our patrons at every level. The music for this episode, the opening was "Old Secret" by James Roach, and the closing is "perfectly generic" by goomy. Sam, where can folks find you on the internet?

Sam: You can follow me a @Sapharodon [on Twitter] for my main, or if you want nothing but like, Rose posts and Vriska posts for the next two years I'm @sahfax [spells it out] which is just Homestuck stuff. Am I allowed to plug one more thing before I leave?

Kate: Yes, yes, please do mention your comic.

Sam: If you're — oh no, I wasn't — well yeah I have a webcomic, that's cool. Chapter two I plan to start sometime late April or at least start posting it, but that wasn't what I was going to plug.

Kate: Okay.

Sam: If you're like me and have been thinking about Rose non-stop for the past several hours, I beg you, I implore you, *please* go find optimisticDuelist's essay on Medium, specifically "Rose Lalonde at the Heart of the World". I actually went and like reread it once before coming here and it —

Kate: Yeah.

Sam: Especially as somebody who didn't necessarily have a lot of the historical knowledge or insight into her and her relationship with her Light aspect —

Kate: Yeah.

Sam: It was very enlightening and wonderful to me. Anybody who's thinking about the topic of Rose and her aspect in depth, please read this essay, please read it. It's *so* good.

Kate: Yeah. I've been thinking about Rose for ten years now and like, that essay by Taz taught me so much. And it genuinely redefined my thoughts on the character. Like, Taz just does incredible work, so yeah. We'll — I'm gonna go ahead and link that essay again in the comments. And that's actually one of the [I]ntermission episodes is me and Taz talking about that essay for about an hour, which if you are interested in Rose, go ahead and check that out.

Sam: Rose likers go listen!!

Kate: Yeah.

Sam: [laughs]

Kate: Alright, this is — that's our show. You can find me on Twitter at @gamblignant8, and fuckin' hell. Get it — see you guys next week. Let's — welcome back to upd8 culture!

Sam: [laughs] Oh god.

[outro]

Kate: Subscribe to the Perfectly Generic Podcast on Patreon at patreon.com/pgenpod and get access to [I]ntermission, a bonus show for patrons featuring moments like this:

Pip: Well I don't know, like say you wrote that really tidy, nice ending to VrisRezi. Like, I'm sure people still would, but like the vast majority of people's investment in like, that relationship as like a continuing thing would go away, partly because it's like not a going concern anymore.

Kate: Yeah.

Pip: At least, from the point of view of how people tend to think about relationships in fiction, which is once it's canon that's it. There's no like, contention anymore.

Kate: Right, and it's like, have you ever been in a romantic relationship before?

Pip: Yeah. [laughs]

Kate: As it turns out, like as the years stretch on, a great deal of things can happen. We need more fic where characters have already been together for a while.

Pip: Yeah. Yeah, and I —

Kate: But also like, if you think that Vriska Serket is capable of settling down and like, having a non-contentious like long-term drama-free personal relationship, like, maybe you and I have different estimations of that character.

[outro x2 combo]